Check it out with Shadowcraft, you can choose Hemo as CP builder.

Note, however, that the Glyph of Hemo seems to be giving too much DPS according to Shadowcraft, which means your actual DPS would be somewhere in between no glyphs and with hemo glyph. The best thing you could do would probably be to just check your DPS on LFR Morchok, ignoring mechanics.

I think he meant with 4pc instead of 2pc 2pc using tricks right into dance I'm assuming it is definitely possible to get 7 ambushes (with glyph and 4pc+TotT) This is just from some napkin math and tests on a target dummy though.


Update
I looked through the chart you linked and I think it was just a miscommunication he was saying 7 straight ambushes vs 5 and evis you can not get 7 and 2 eviscerates as well.

The post I linked to was outdated, here is an updated one:

Ambush Only:
With Evis:
Edit: Changed to only 5s of Tricks of Time.

So it's really between 6amb+3evis or 7amb, seems like the evis rotation is a no brainer.

How are you managing 6 28-energy gcds? Tricks takes a gcd, so this is only going to work if you pop tricks while you aren't attacking something, which is going to cut into your setup. It also assumes absolutely zero latency.

Hey Panthal,

I was combing through this thread to find the little "paragraph" you said you had written up with regards to expertise and crit. But I didn't see it. Is it perhaps in another thread or does it just not exist anymore?

Basically I'm at 43.0#% crit, and am feeling that dropping some of that for expertise would be useful, after reading different snippits of the conversation here with regards to it. I would just like to know if there are any solid numbers with regards to this. 2pt12 and 2pt13 is what I run with, so I'm pretty sure that reforging to expertise is desirable from what I am reading... but I guess I just like to see some numbers before swapping things up, if you know any off the top of your head.

Thanks.

@Manthony
It used to be in the thread, and was since removed when t12 ended (hence the past tense tone in that post). I'm not sure what numbers you're looking for, since the general EP weights are on the front page.

@Kromos
It's hard to say without knowing what your remaining Slice and Dice uptime, Recuperate uptime, and Time-to-Die is for your current target, and if any other targets are in the vicinity.

Let's say I have more than 10s for SnD and Rec and the boss is above 15% with no adds.

I got confused because a MoP Rupture is first on the general finisher priority and Ambush is the main CP builder and after that my head exploded.

Master of subtlety includes both attacks made from stealth and any attacks made for 6 seconds after exiting it, so you don't have to choose. Ambush, get to 5 cps however you need to, and then rupture. Try to get your hemorrhage bleeds up while you have both the master of subtlety buff and expose armor up, if possible, but don't break your brain trying to juggle too many priorities. The important thing is that your rupture should have MoS buff whenever possible and that you maximize your expose weakness uptime with your cooldowns.

Basically, you should never ever use a stealth-breaking ability that isn't ambush. Recup and SnD don't break stealth, although you should never be casting them while vanished because your autoattack is disabled.

@Pathal
Ah ok, I see now I had misinterpreted some of the posts I had read. I was under the impression that at "X" crit it was advisable to start reforging Expertise. I see now that in the end it's just a good idea in general to cap it, and then move forward from there. My apologies also for typoing your name :P I start some Python courses at school next quarter, hopefully then I can use the backend to get the answers I need. At the moment it kind of baffles me, heh.

Thanks again for your time.

After getting the legendary daggers and tweaking some new gear I was playing with the racial's tab on shadowcraft, just being curious to see what the other racials were like outside of worgan and quite surprised when it showed that switching from worgan to nightelf gave a 500 or so dps increase as sub spec. I don't know, but that seems a quite high increase for just a racial alone, especially above worgan where 1% crit is pretty good for sub. Should it be trusted?

Thanks for the quick answer Aldriana, I'll keep that in mind. I also have a quick query for Pathal about the legendary for sub, you mention in the front page that using the proc from the daggers for evis spam seems viable when only under damage buff increases, and that uptime of recup and s&d should take prio.

What about the hemo bleed from the glyph, a normal rupture (if say you lost empowered) and cooldown use such as SD, vanish ect. Should those be ignored if say they came off cd just as you get a proc until fury of the destroyer is finished? Although rng it does occur at the same time, I've noticed that it can and will happen sooner or later that they coincide together, so just wondered what your thoughts would be on that.

That's stuff I've been thinking a lot about lately.

With Vanish, we have to mostly consider the remaining time on Fury. I see no reason to drop the last Eviscerate for an Ambush, but dropping the first Ambush such that the remaining 5 Eviscerates get MoS/FW seems like it should be the optimal scenario. Therefore there's clearly a conversion point, I just don't know where right now.

Shadow Dance isn't quite that clear cut however, since triggering it while under the effects of Fury, or right before the effects of Fury leads to lost Ambushes. And holding off on Shadow Dance will almost certainly cause you to lose uses of it. It seems like a lose-lose situation, and I don't have a real answer right now. I'm leaning towards use Shadow Dance on CD, and get at least 2 Ambushes off (at the start and end) if Fury procs during it with Ambushes if you ever approach 100 energy, but if someone else thinks they have an idea on a good calculation for this then have at it.

Ignore the bleed from Hemorrhage if it drops during Fury, even if Hemo hits harder, the damage lost via downtime should pale in comparison to the damage done by an eviscerate, and that's before considering that it's a cheaper cast.

I don't know why you wouldn't throw a Rupture up if you let it drop, though, if you can acquire the legendary daggers I don't see why you ever would since you should have the gear to keep it up fairly easily.

Somewhat unrelated, I've actually been thinking about holding off on applying Rupture at the start of the fight due to WoU and Shadows stacks. If you vanish right as the first FW ends, you get the agi from the prepot, the 880-990 agi from WoU, and whatever agi from Shadows as well as MoS back. There's a lot more to this, like improved Recuperate uptime, potentially receiving Tricks of the Trade, and more. If someone else thinks they have a good handle on a calculation for this then go for it, but it's on the backburner for me until I feel I have more time.

I found mostly from private dummy testing on my own that if the fury proc is going to proc (which can be damn random as I've seen even as sub it proccing quite often at 49 stacks and others just past the 30 mark straight away) that you'll get clashing with shadowdance coming off cd then it procs or during shadowdance, pending if you glyph it or not and use the 4 set which will increase the chance of it coinciding even more.

Not very often i've had it go off where I've had vanish close at hand, given that's a longer cd and such, but shadowdance can be a damn pain with the proc on such a short cd. It's really hard to be prepared for something you don't know when exactly it will go off, that's why I was wondering if it was worth while holding off on using shadowdance or vanish past 30 stacks or just blow them when you can and get more use out of the cd's. Since if it doesn't proc until the very 49th stack it's kinda crap if you put off using shadowdance or such.

So you'd suggest holding off on vanish at least if your past 30 stacks Pathal?

Not quite. The issue with Vanish really only occurs if Fury procs as you Vanish, or right before Vanish comes off CD. Not casting Vanish post 30 stacks is a very different thing.

Just don't cast Vanish as Fury ends if it comes off CD during it.

Just tested this with another rogue, and from what we can tell tricks will increase the total Rupture damage if you apply it during the debuff, and the individual ticks if you get the buff mid-rupture. However, if you use Rupture with the buff up you will not get a bonus to tick damage - just overall. Can somebody verify this? One of us could have been wrong but it seems unlikely since we both generarally know what we are doing.

Small correction: you can now Shadowstep the large tentacles (Corrputions) that spawn at the back, too.
But don't bother trying to, it will either kill you (drop you into the water) or throw you to the next platform (if you're lucky).

It should be rather apparent that Sub is still one of the least played specs in the PvE game. It therefore rarely gets as much attention as it arguably deserves, and tends to get disregarded as a gimick that only shines on some fights. Expecting it to get the same level of attention as Combat or Assassination would, frankly, be naive. But when I look around the web, or field questions, I see a lot of contradicting or misleading things from other locations. As an example, Heroic Spine has only exacerbated the issue as people can see a dozen different techniques on what's the "right way" to burst the tendons, with surprisingly little overlap. Such a disparity should not exist, not for any class or spec.

The disparity between SimC and Shadowcraft is also a little big too. While not big enough to be a major concern, it does make things a little less clear. I'm going to include BiS lists and stat weights from SimC for anyone who disapproves of Shadowcraft, but will continue to bias Shadowcraft for the rest of the guide. Note that the SimC info will most probably change in the following weeks as I, or someone else, can see what changes might have occured or will occur due to Rogue bug fixes. Believe it or not, it's still not that accurate.

Additionally, I've got a list of mechanics and "facts" that should probably be recalculated, via some sort of simulation or formulation techniques. Gear and mechanics have changed a lot since some of the facts were figured out, and the results may have changed. I will be working on these over the next week before I get back to my other projects. I have some numbers for essentially all of them right now, but want to sit on them and keep thinking about the problems first to prevent jumping to conclusions. If you want to take a stab at any of them, they are listed below:
1) 4CP vs 5CP finishers during Shadow Dance. -- Rising crit values past Ambush soft cap might have changed this.
2) Value of Slice and Dice: Clipping, uptime and finisher size.
3) Which two Heroic Spine glyphs? Hemo, SD, SnD, or Evis.
4) Fix SimC's modelling of Burning Wounds (2p t12). -- Still extremely undervalued.
5) Double check SimC's updated legendary modelling output. -- Logic and breakdown looks reasonable, total damage boost was larger than I expected.
6) Pending 4 & 5, look to improve SimC BiS sets and priority lists.
7) Double check value of +2s of Shadow Dance in Shadowcraft.
8) Delaying Rupture until 11-12s later, with MoS back up, Wrath of Unchaining at max stacks, and a prepot still going.
9) Casting SnD at ~5s until pull, and letting HAT fill up, then cast Recup on the pull.
10) Revisit Hemo?

Sorry for the unclear response from before regarding Tricks and Rupture. The other rogue was wrong. As I said in my own guide...

"If you use rupture while you have the TotT buff up, the damage increase applies to the whole bleed. That means a TotT'd rupture is even better than an MoS'd one, and when combined...ohhh...."

I haven't seen this anywhere and figured I'd do a test to find how much of a damage boost the FW debuff is. Looks like about 28% but here is what I did and all of my calculations.

NOTE: All of this was done without a Armor debuff ability on the enemy. Something like Sunder Armor would change the value of the talent. But anyway, here is what I got.

This uses Hemo (With bleed up already) on the boss training dummy with no proc gear on. The only wep I used was [Gutgore Ripper] with the Fiery Weapon enchant on it.


Norm:
Avg Min Max Difference
Hits (200) 4819 4752 4888 136
Crits (72) 11480 11304 11625 321


FW:
Avg Min Max Difference
Hits (200) 6185 6096 6269 173
Crits (64) 14716 14503 14908 403

Note: For the FW buffs I checked the numbers at 86 hits (? crits) and the averages I believe both changed by only 1 since then.

Avg damage bonus:

Hits:
(FW-Norm)/Norm = (6185-4819)/4819 = 0.283461299 = 28% Damage bonus (No armor debuff)

Crits:
(FW-Norm)/Norm = (14716-11480)/11480 = 0.281881533 = 28% Damage bonus (No armor debuff)


Next comes the calcs for when you should refresh a non-FW hemo bleed if you have the buff, as well as hopefully whether or not it is best to wait for Prem and SS to be off CD before using Vanish after a ShD, or if it should be used right away. (I'd guess the former looking at this but depends on how good Prem is.)

Please. Night Elf has always been the best race, Alliance or otherwise. Unless there are fights where you can't flip-jump, of course.

In seriousness, this change was snuck in over the summer. I think the chain of events was:

1)- In the olden days, there were two druid races, each with a racial they had to be in caster to use.
2)- For Cata, two new druid races were introduced. One was a new race, the other an old race. Both new races have dps racials useful for druids, a historical first.
3)- Likely since denying berserking to trolls would be very strange indeed, the existing druid races were suddenly allowed to use their racials in animal forms.
4)- For no known reason, this allowed cats to open from shadowmeld- likely the coding was just similar, or something.
5)- After months of rogues QQing on the WoW forums (uh, I'm sure I had nothing to do with that sort of behavior), suddenly night elf rogues have a dps racial, for the first time in WoW history.

Yay!



I'm surprised to see that garrote is more valuable than worgen crit, even if by a little. I'm not at all shocked that the extra wave of find weakness is up there for sub- that's a very noticeable damage increase even without a sim. I assume you have handled the simming assuming the interruption in autoattack that can occur, but assuming a macro will start it up again.

Given the talent choices in mop, it would seem a somewhat safe guess that Blizzard intends openers to be good for all rogue specs, so it's likely we'll see combat be able to make a gain using ambush in the next expansion. Fingers crossed, at least.

Based on the armor parameter for a level 85 player (26070) and the armor of a typical boss-level target (11977) we can compute the value exactly; its 26070 / (26070 + 11977 * .3) / (26070 / (26070 + 11977)) = (26070 + 11977) / (26070 + 11977 * .3) = 1.2826, so Find Weakness on an undebuffed target gives a 28.26% damage increase.

If the target is debuffed, that reduces the target armor by 12%, so we get (26070 + 11977 * .88 * .3) / (26070 + 11977 * .88) = 1.2524, or a 25.24% damage increase.