I've found myself losing all Deadly Poison stacks from time to time while dpsing fulltime on a singletarget boss like Morchok or Yor'sahj. Is this intended with current EP value for spellhit or am I just extremely unlucky? Would it be an idea to trade some crit to more hit in order to prevent deadly poison from falling off?
In my opinion, rather than trying to counter a completely random behavior by artificially altering your EP values, it's much easier to just Shiv when the stack is about to drop. I think that the DPS loss from casting let's say 0-3 Shivs per fight is quite insignificant.
Also, on bosses where you have to move away from your target for a while, a single Shiv cast just before you back off can ensure that your DP stack is still there and ready to be refreshed when you get back to the boss again.
The problem with Shiv is that its a pretty significant DPS loss each time you use it. If you could reliably only use it when it was absolutely necessary it might be worthwhile, but in practice you tend to have a lot of misfires so historically it has not been worth it.
In terms of the EP value: it is to some extent accounted for, and to some extent not. The problem is that its a very low probability event, so while it costs you a reasonable amount of damage when it happens... it doesn't really happen that often, so the average-case impact on your DPS is not that large. So while the EP values of haste and hit - particularly spell hit - might be a bit lower than they should be, they're not going to change very much. So in general, I wouldn't worry about the problem too much.
Lately I've been thinking a bit about the interaction between the unglyphed Shadow Dance and Premeditation. With a 6 second duration, and taking latency and reaction time into account, I can use 5 abilities before the Dance wears off. If I have Premeditaion, the sequence will be premed+ambush > finisher > ambush > ambush > finisher, for a total of 3 ambushes and 2 finishers. Without Premeditation, this would look like ambush > ambush > finisher > ambush > ambush, for a total of 4 ambushes and 1 finisher. In terms of damage done during the Dance, the second option seems to be better, which would mean that not using Premed during the dance is actually beneficial. I'd like to hear some thoughts about this, either theoretical or from experience in raids.
Is latency the problem, or finger speed? The only time I'm ever able to get a forth Ambush off after the second finisher is when Premeditation is on cool down.
I was fooling around with shadowcraft the other day just for fun, then i came across a sub build that does more dps than the standard build using Hemorrhage. i did a series of test with it (on dummy and LFR), and i did feel a slight dps increase. But i just wanted other players views on this matter, as i may be overlooking something important.
Now i do realize that shadowcraft might have a few bugs, but I'm showing 650dps increase when compared to the BIS list given in the guide here (with legendaries).
The talent build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Glyphs: Hemo, SnD, Evis
Gear: Underdweller's Spaulder's (HC) instead of Blackfang Spaulders (HC) was the only difference
Im not trying to create a front facing sub build, but just something i came across that i thought id share.
I don't know how severe your latency is, but personally I can quite consistently do premed+ambush > finisher > ambush > ambush > finisher > ambush.
Is latency the problem, or finger speed? The only time I'm ever able to get a forth Ambush off after the second finisher is when Premeditation is on cool down.
My latency sometimes is to blame for this, but my reaction time might be the main reason here. I play sub only on a few encounters, and the problem is the most severe on the Unsleeping globules, where movement while Shadow Dance is active can prevent a solid execution. So, for a situation like this, when I know there's a high chance that I won't be able to fit in the sixth move, 4 ambushes + 1 finisher should be better than 3 ambushes + 2 finishers. Am I right on this?
If I have Premeditaion, the sequence will be premed+ambush > finisher > ambush > ambush > finisher, for a total of 3 ambushes and 2 finishers. Without Premeditation, this would look like ambush > ambush > finisher > ambush > ambush, for a total of 4 ambushes and 1 finisher..
What I suggest is waiting for 2-3 CP before using Dance, then you get Ambush>Finisher>PremedAmbush>Finisher>Ambush>Ambush. This means even if you can't get the 6th ability you still have max duration on FW, which is what counts. Another benefit is potentially more finishers during the FW buff due to using the CP from the beginning on a finisher during FW (also giving more energy back)
To follow up this post (expand the spoiler because it's a fairly big post)...
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1) 5CP finishers during Shadow Dance are the way to go still. That said, the difference is borderline negligable at these higher crit rates, almost to the point where it's decided by a coinflip. You may get better luck with 4CP or 5CP, as gear should have an impact.
2) No matter how I cut this, there is always a better option of using a 5CP Slice and Dice with either more clipping or downtime, than a <5 CP version. It's not just about the gain from autoattacks, but the damage loss from a potential Backstab. Worst case scenario you use 1CP SnDs every time, every other Slice and Dice costs at least a Backstab and a CP, that ends up being over 50k damage lost on average. 50k damage over say 40 seconds is equivilent to like 7 seconds of SnD downtime. Slice and Dice uptime is extremely important, but as a Sub Rogue you should always be able to anticipate what's coming next and plan accordingly. Working to get 5CP Slice and Dices up as the last one finishes is, and will remain, the best method.
3) -- SnD has no burst value on an abstract level. 21s surpases the length of the burn, which means that SnD is there for convenience or Amalg DPS.
-- Shadow Dance does not increase the duration of Find Weakness, since it too would extend past the duration of the burn phase (2s for Vanish, 6s for SD, another 10s for FW means 18s). Cheating this calculation and pulling it from Shadowcraft, 430DPS over 1min is 25.8k damage, which is slightly high since it factors in the extended FW uptime. Probably should be in the realm of 20k damage, pending on your crit rate and weapons.
-- Hemorrhage is a quirky one. The glyph should deal around 18k damage if it's cast after the first Ambush, with FW up. However, this pulls energy from Ambush/Backstab/Eviscerate, despite being a very efficient use of that energy. Does a total of about around 48k damage.
-- Eviscerate, if we assume it hits for 40k normal, then it crits for a bit over 81k. This glyph then ends up being around 4k damage per Eviscerate, with roughly 5 Eviscerates per tendon phase that's in the range of 20k damage.
Which is best? Well, in a vacuum, Hemorrhage > Shadow Dance/Eviscerate > Slice and Dice. In reality? Slice and Dice is still very strong on the Amalgs, and makes it easier to prepare for the burn. Eviscerate is roughly on par with Shadow Dance, neither of which require extra planning/work. Hemo is rather annoying to add to the tendons, but helps with Amalgs and guarantees a bleed on the target. Take the glyphs that help you get done, what your raid needs to get done.
4) May be due to an erroneous munching method. I had a ~130% increase in 2p DPS once I removed this code block. This brings the value of Burning Wounds up significantly, to around where Shadowcraft puts it, roughly at least. The kicker though, is that SimC and Shadowcraft still generate a lower output than what we see in game. In the realm of 20-30 percent lower. I should add that 2p t12 pulls ahead in SimC as this stuff gets fixed.
I don't think the remaining undervalueing is a bug on our end, I think Burning Wounds is just doing more damage than intended in game. I'm a little embarassed that I didn't think of this sooner, but we can fully realize this by making a few generous assumptions. If we assume every bit of DPS triggers 2p, and there's no munching, that's 100% DPS generating an additional 6%, for a total of 106%. This means the total percentage of Burning Wounds turns into .06/1.06~=.0566 in that perfect world scenario. The fact that we see numbers past 6% in game means that something is very broken in the calculations on the server, or our logs. I'm leaning towards the server.
2piece tier 12 really is that awesome.
5) I don't see an issue with it, but then again I was the source for the logic. This needs peer review.
6) I'll keep working on this, I don't have anything worth posting now though.
7) It doesn't appear to factor in pooling, or the synergy with Tricks of Time very well, but I don't see where it handles wasted CPs either. How much does this impact the value of the glyph? It shouldn't change by too much, maybe go up a little. If anyone else thinks they have a better solution, have at it. I'm a little too preoccupied to work on that.
8) I'm going to redo this one. I just caught a mistake.
9) A gain, but you HAVE to make use of all the energy generated and get your healers to prehot or it's pointless. And energy is not much of an issue for the first several seconds of a fight due to Tricks of Time, and the fact that you start at max energy. If you don't think you can get full use out of it, don't bother.
10) Sims show it as a DPS loss still, but I might come back to it later. Interesting none the less, as it does seem to be holding up rather well with the legendaries.
On an unrelated note, guild broke up the other day. So if you're interested in a high DPS Rogue then get in touch soon.
Has anybody put any thought into a build to maximize the legendary procs? I am thinking using 7/3/31 with Glyphs of Hemo, SnD, and Evisc. You would make Haste>Exp>YHit>SHit>Mastery? It would require quite a bit of gear, but assuming you can maximize the amount of hits you get the build could be interesting. I do not have the legendaries, otherwise I would check this out myself.
I just switched from Troll to Undead because of the looks (I am not a fan of troll toes...) and I am worried about the dps.
How much more dps do you get from Troll racial, berserking?
Can berserking make a huge difference during lust time/pop all cd/ burn boss phase?
Has anybody put any thought into a build to maximize the legendary procs? I am thinking using 7/3/31 with Glyphs of Hemo, SnD, and Evisc. You would make Haste>Exp>YHit>SHit>Mastery? It would require quite a bit of gear, but assuming you can maximize the amount of hits you get the build could be interesting. I do not have the legendaries, otherwise I would check this out myself.
I've been toying with it a lot, but we have to consider just how many attacks we will gain. The number of Hemorrhages (and couple more Eviscerates) over the number of Backstabs that you can deliver in a single fight isn't that much more. Then we have to consider just how much DPS the legendary actually gives, and how to force it to generated another 1, 1.5, 2k DPS ends up amounting to a massive increase in melee attacks per second.
I will openly entertain the idea that hemo might be a strong alternative, but the current tools we have at our disposal say Backstab is still better.
Has anybody put any thought into a build to maximize the legendary procs? I am thinking using 7/3/31 with Glyphs of Hemo, SnD, and Evisc. You would make Haste>Exp>YHit>SHit>Mastery? It would require quite a bit of gear, but assuming you can maximize the amount of hits you get the build could be interesting. I do not have the legendaries, otherwise I would check this out myself.
As i Posted earlier:
Originally Posted by Rehv
The talent build: 8/2/31
Glyphs: Hemo, SnD, Evis
Gear: Underdweller's Spaulder's (HC) instead of Blackfang Spaulders (HC) was the only difference from the BIS gear listed
With the legendary daggers, you do approx. 650dps more than the standard backstab build in shadowcraft, (but i don't fully understand how shadowcraft does its rotation, thats y i posted looking for help )
It puts me at Haste>Y-Hit>Crit>Exp>Mastery>S-Hit.
On a side note, it might be lacking behind backstab, but for sum reason the rotation seem to flow easier with this build (although its the same rotation)
You're forgetting that Shadowcraft on mmo-mumble doesn't interface with Hemo weaving. At all. So your Hemorrhage glyph does nothing in the Backstab build, which means you're missing about somewhere around 1k DPS, putting a Backstab build ahead of Hemorrhage again.
Shadowcraft (at least the web-based one) doesn't have the legendary proc, which is what the build is based off of. Also the interesting thing about it is whether or not it would do more damage than the normal hemo build if you used combat itemization, since the stat priority would likely be the same for all intents and purposes. If this were the case than such a build would have a lot more potential. Also because crit would not be taken (at least if you are only using a combat set), it would potentially be better to use the T13 4pc in the Sub build.
Lately I've been thinking a bit about the interaction between the unglyphed Shadow Dance and Premeditation. With a 6 second duration, and taking latency and reaction time into account, I can use 5 abilities before the Dance wears off. If I have Premeditaion, the sequence will be premed+ambush > finisher > ambush > ambush > finisher, for a total of 3 ambushes and 2 finishers. Without Premeditation, this would look like ambush > ambush > finisher > ambush > ambush, for a total of 4 ambushes and 1 finisher. In terms of damage done during the Dance, the second option seems to be better, which would mean that not using Premed during the dance is actually beneficial. I'd like to hear some thoughts about this, either theoretical or from experience in raids.
I run into this problem every now and then. You can get a little behind in the beginning if you try and hi SD - Premed - Ambush.
What I usually do is start off like this:
I got a question about weaving hemo (with glyph) into your prio.
Is it worth do use a second or third hemo until it crits, so the dot does the (more than) double dmg?
Has anyone experience with that or maybe even an explicit answer?
And if it is this, do you have a good idea of tracking these crits besides some huge scrolling combat text addon with a filter? I dont like to use Parrot or something like that for only this reason x)
I actually have been working on an addon to do just that Pyrdon, the only problem is that progress is slow due to not having experience with addon programming (if anyone wants to help shoot a PM, it uses CombustionHelper as a guideline). In general I doubt crit values are high enough to warrant waiting for a crit, but it could well be that when combined with more AP due to procs, and boosts such as TotT, FW, and MoS, it could be better to overwrite hemo quite early, pending buff uptimes. At the very least the damage you dealt v. the average damage of your next Hemo will come into play if you are dealing with the final tick, as when you overwrite the next tick will deal the damage from the NEW hemo.
The DpE of hemo is really pretty similar to that of backstab, so it shouldn't be a huge issue. Especially since crit rates should be upwards of 50%, so we're not talking about having to spam it for a while until you get good rng. Any crit's dot will do 233% (263?) of the damage of a normal hemo so I'm guessing it's worthwhile in sustained dps situations. Would just worry that it makes sub's already hectic rotation even more exhausting/focus-demanding, which can absolutely have a detrimental effect on dps.
What changes are you seeing? I haven't touched the Shadowcraft BiS lists since December, and working with SimC is slow, so that hasn't changed since I added that too.
Update: I just pushed a change to the front post through. I reached around ~58k by shuffling the reforges and items (including legendaries) around in SimC, the default profile is around ~56.5k. Due to the nature of simulation, there's probably still room for improvement. If you think you have a better combination, send me the entire profile (with the build number) however you want and make sure it was done with at least 10k iterations (preferably 50k).
I still don't like the formatting of the BiS table, but at least it's cleaner.
Hmm, I see you have now listed the Choker and Razor as better than Cameo and Horrifying with the legendaries, but it shows the opposite when I check with Shadowcraft.
Shadowcraft doesn't model the increased eviscerate damage at the moment, nor does it handle the agi stacks resetting. Mastery should rise above spell hit with the legendaries as a result.
How much? I'm not entirely sure right now, but mastery should be worth more.
EDIT: The Razor Saronite Chip thing seemed odd to me, as that implies hit>crit. I'm still getting higher DPS with it though, possibly due to the stacking agi and the way reforges work out.
EDIT2: I must have been doing something wrong. I see it (both items equipped) being behind now, by around 10-15 DPS. I'm hesitant about changing it, since we don't have the new EP's with the legendary still. I'll decide later tonight.
I am wondering if Recuperate could have higher priority than Rupture. According to DrDamage, my Backstab does an average damage of about 16000 while Rupture does 12000 damage over 16s, or 750DPS. If I apply Recuperate I could generate 12 extra energy every 3s, or 4 energy per second. This 4 energy could potentially increase 16000/40*4=1600 damage as I could consume my energy for Backstab and the benefits from CP generated from application of Backstab has not been considered yet. Therefore, Recuperate could generate AT LEAST 1600 DPS while ,as previous mentioned, Rupture could only contribute an increase in DPS of 750. As a result, I think Recuperate is far more beneficial than Rupture.
Last edited by Forestmonkey : 02/28/12 at 3:31 AM.
02/08/12, 6:25 AM
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