Cataclysm Subtlety Compendium - Page 2

Lord_Chaos · 02/25/11, 1:57 AM

the other point being overlooked about rupture is sanguinary vein, ups the damage dealt to targets with a bleed effect on them, all though other classes can produce bleed effects and usually much better it still should not be overlooked

Omniwank · 02/25/11, 2:27 AM

Originally Posted by Deius

I forgot to say this in my first post, but what testing or math or anything do you have that proves you should pool energy at 3 CPs instead of 4? It just seems dumb.

You must retain at least 35 energy at all times for Eviscerate (which is practically every other finisher). If you are at, say, 50 energy and 3 CPs, and you Backstab, you risk losing a CP because you will not have the energy to immediately dump your finisher (despite ER procs). By pooling at 3 CPs, you ensure that HaT procs are not wasted and that you always have enough energy for the finisher needed.

Narokusama · 02/25/11, 2:57 AM

Originally Posted by Omniwank

You must retain at least 35 energy at all times for Eviscerate (which is practically every other finisher). If you are at, say, 50 energy and 3 CPs, and you Backstab, you risk losing a CP because you will not have the energy to immediately dump your finisher (despite ER procs). By pooling at 3 CPs, you ensure that HaT procs are not wasted and that you always have enough energy for the finisher needed.

Is it plausable that this spec could be on par with current combat/muta only in 25 man raids or is possible in the 10 man enviroment?

Omniwank · 02/25/11, 3:42 AM

Originally Posted by Narokusama

Is it plausable that this spec could be on par with current combat/muta only in 25 man raids or is possible in the 10 man enviroment?

Raid size should have a negligible difference on HaT's effectiveness.

Shalcker · 02/25/11, 3:50 AM

Isn't Glyph of Shadow Dance better or at least comparable to Eviscerate?
It can reliably give you 4 ambushes and 2 finishers with 2 "free" gcds as well as longer Find Weakness uptime, and can allow 5 Ambushes/2 finishers with haste procs/Heroism.

If you pre-pot, it is obviously best to use Shadow Dance while potion buff is still up, clipping Find Weakness from initial Ambush, and using Master of Subtlety. Your "total" Find Weakness uptime shouldn't suffer from that because using ShDance earlier means having Find Weakness earlier when CD comes up again.

Also, durations of Recuperate/SnD when entering Shadow Dance are irrelevant, you just substitute Eviscerate with Recuperate/SnD as needed, and by using less energy get lower haste requirements for 5th Ambush with Shadow Dance glyph. You'll use Eviscerate outside of Shadow Dance while Find Weakness is still up anyway.

Originally Posted by Narokusama

Is it plausable that this spec could be on par with current combat/muta only in 25 man raids or is possible in the 10 man enviroment?

In pretty much all logs with "serious" Subtlety rogues, on similar gear levels they show results close to other specs. Obviously Assassination wins where it can use superior AoE capabilities, and Subtlety can win in fights with lots of target switching.

Omniwank · 02/25/11, 4:12 AM

Originally Posted by Shalcker

Isn't Glyph of Shadow Dance better or at least comparable to Eviscerate?
It can reliably give you 4 ambushes and 2 finishers with 2 "free" gcds as well as longer Find Weakness uptime, and can allow 5 Ambushes/2 finishers with haste procs/Heroism.

If you pre-pot, it is obviously best to use Shadow Dance while potion buff is still up, clipping Find Weakness from initial Ambush, and using Master of Subtlety. Your "total" Find Weakness uptime shouldn't suffer from that because using ShDance earlier means having Find Weakness earlier when CD comes up again.

Also, durations of Recuperate/SnD when entering Shadow Dance are irrelevant, you just substitute Eviscerate with Recuperate/SnD as needed, and by using less energy get lower haste requirements for 5th Ambush with Shadow Dance glyph. You'll use Eviscerate outside of Shadow Dance while Find Weakness is still up anyway.

I removed the Glyph of Shadow Dance because there simply isn't enough energy returns/generation to support 4 Ambushes and 3 Eviscerates over 8 seconds. Also, substituting Eviscerate for Recuperate or SnD during Shadow Dance means forfeiting the Find Weakness debuff being applied to those Eviscerates.

Probaton · 02/25/11, 4:34 AM

Am I the only one that gets the feeling that Hemorrhage is the elephant in the room here? Obviously I defer to your better judgment if you say it has no place in a max-dps rotation (which you seem to be implying by not mentioning it except as an alternate cp-generator) but isn't it at least noteworthy for it's bleed buff? Or would you require an all-dps-warrior cast for it to be significant?

ps. Kudos for doing what everyone else was too busy/scared to do by the way. Big thumbs up.

Shalcker · 02/25/11, 6:47 AM

Originally Posted by Omniwank

I removed the Glyph of Shadow Dance because there simply isn't enough energy returns/generation to support 4 Ambushes and 3 Eviscerates over 8 seconds.

You can support 4 Ambushes and 2 Eviscerates without any haste. There is never enough cp or energy for 3rd Eviscerate, true, and it is not needed either.
40 * 4 + 10 * 2 = 180 energy, base energy regen is 10 per second, and either 24 or 36 energy from Recuperate. Looking at worst case - 24 energy from Recuperate, 80 energy from base regen, you can do 4/2 if you enter Shadow Dance with 80+ energy pooled.

Best case is 36 energy from Recuperate, 80*1.1 (attack speed buff)*1.14(haste) = ~100 energy from regen, entering with 85+ energy you should be able to do 5 ambushes 2 eviscerates.

You can always do 5 Ambush/2 Evis during Heroism. Next tier will also has haste proc trinkets perfectly tuned for Shadow Dance.

Also, substituting Eviscerate for Recuperate or SnD during Shadow Dance means forfeiting the Find Weakness debuff being applied to those Eviscerates.

Your amount of Eviscerates during Find Weakness is largely static, even if you fit them all into Shadow Dance you will have to renew either SnD or Recuperate as next finisher while Find Weakness is still up, "losing" bonus. It's a bit false loss because SnD also benefits from Find Weakness and takes less energy, allowing you to backstab more while Find Weakness is still up. Same logic for Recuperate.

You should also probably note that you can refresh Recuperate with <3 seconds left (2 or less on blizzard timer) without losing any ticks.

Omniwank · 02/25/11, 9:31 AM

Originally Posted by Shalcker

You can support 4 Ambushes and 2 Eviscerates without any haste. There is never enough cp or energy for 3rd Eviscerate, true, and it is not needed either.
40 * 4 + 10 * 2 = 180 energy, base energy regen is 10 per second, and either 24 or 36 energy from Recuperate. Looking at worst case - 24 energy from Recuperate, 80 energy from base regen, you can do 4/2 if you enter Shadow Dance with 80+ energy pooled.

Best case is 36 energy from Recuperate, 80*1.1 (attack speed buff)*1.14(haste) = ~100 energy from regen, entering with 85+ energy you should be able to do 5 ambushes 2 eviscerates.

You can always do 5 Ambush/2 Evis during Heroism. Next tier will also has haste proc trinkets perfectly tuned for Shadow Dance.

The problem with this calculation is that in practice you will not have 5 CPs for every Eviscerate, meaning they will not always cost 10 energy from RS returns. The 2 second cooldown of HaT contributes to this problem, and since you are GCD locked during Shadow Dance there's no time to wait for HaT procs. Even if you Ambush twice to guarantee an RS return on an Eviscerate, you are likely to lose 2 CPs in the process.

Originally Posted by Shalcker

You should also probably note that you can refresh Recuperate with <3 seconds left (2 or less on blizzard timer) without losing any ticks.

Recuperate's final tick occurs as the buff wears off. The first tick also occurs 3 seconds after the buff is applied. If you are refreshing it with <3 seconds left, how are you not losing the final tick of the initial buff and delaying the next tick 3 more seconds?

Shalcker · 02/25/11, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Omniwank

The problem with this calculation is that in practice you will not have 5 CPs for every Eviscerate, meaning they will not always cost 10 energy from RS returns. The 2 second cooldown of HaT contributes to this problem, and since you are GCD locked during Shadow Dance there's no time to wait for HaT procs. Even if you Ambush twice to guarantee an RS return on an Eviscerate, you are likely to lose 2 CPs in the process.

You definitely can get 5CP for every Eviscerate during Shadow Dance, and HaT is reason why it's so reliable.

Double Ambush/Evis is slightly superior to single Ambush/Evis during Shadow Dance according to simulations, so, yes, you Ambush twice and take CP overflow if you spec into Initiative. Without Initiative you get exactly 5 CP for 2 Ambushes -> Ambush (2) + Ambush (2) + HaT (1) from any of those two Ambushes (with 90+% crit rate) or any other source, no wait needed.

You're also not GCD-locked if you take Shadow Dance glyph, though it gets pretty close if you aim for 5/2.

Recuperate's final tick occurs as the buff wears off. The first tick also occurs 3 seconds after the buff is applied. If you are refreshing it with <3 seconds left, how are you not losing the final tick of the initial buff and delaying the next tick 3 more seconds?

It works same way as refreshing any other DoTs/HoTs, if you refresh them before expiration, it gets extended by time remaining until next tick. So, you refresh at 2.99 seconds left, you get 32.99 second Recuperate, ticking 11 times. Really easy to test.

Mézga · 02/25/11, 11:57 AM

I went Subtlety for one of our raid nights and was "shadowcraft engine" optimized...

I noticed that i had a couple instances where my rotation was going so smooth that I could envenom every once in a while instead of eviscerate and not affect my rotation (i.e. Recouperate, Rupture, & SnD were all up).

Also...Does the shadowcraft engine assume 1cp every 2secs (for Honor Among Thieves)?...I couldn't tell by the code.

Shalcker · 02/25/11, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Mézga

I went Subtlety for one of our raid nights and was "shadowcraft engine" optimized...

I noticed that i had a couple instances where my rotation was going so smooth that I could envenom every once in a while instead of eviscerate and not affect my rotation (i.e. Recouperate, Rupture, & SnD were all up).

You really shouldn't Envenom as Subtlety. You're losing Deadly Poison mainhand poison procs that way, as well as Deadly Poison uptime. When you have everything up, you Eviscerate. If everything is still up when you get 5CP again, you Eviscerate again.

Also...Does the shadowcraft engine assume 1cp every 2secs (for Honor Among Thieves)?...I couldn't tell by the code.

It doesn't. It sets them from "test_cycle = settings.SubtletyCycle(5)" - where 5 is expected amount of raid crits per second, which is about 2.2 seconds per CP.

Omniwank · 02/25/11, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by Shalcker

You definitely can get 5CP for every Eviscerate during Shadow Dance, and HaT is reason why it's so reliable.

Double Ambush/Evis is slightly superior to single Ambush/Evis during Shadow Dance according to simulations, so, yes, you Ambush twice and take CP overflow if you spec into Initiative. Without Initiative you get exactly 5 CP for 2 Ambushes -> Ambush (2) + Ambush (2) + HaT (1) from any of those two Ambushes (with 90+% crit rate) or any other source, no wait needed.

You're also not GCD-locked if you take Shadow Dance glyph, though it gets pretty close if you aim for 5/2.

It works same way as refreshing any other DoTs/HoTs, if you refresh them before expiration, it gets extended by time remaining until next tick. So, you refresh at 2.99 seconds left, you get 32.99 second Recuperate, ticking 11 times. Really easy to test.

I updated the Recuperate info. Double Ambush/Evis during Shadow Dance is only possible once due to energy restrictions, and that is assuming you are at full energy/Recuperate duration when you initiate it. On the same note, 4 Ambushes and 2 Eviscerates are achievable without the glyph - again with full energy and Recuperate up. As these are impractical, best-case scenarios, you basically need the stars to align to get anything out of those extra 2 seconds, and since the spec is already convoluted enough, it's difficult to recommend the glyph.

Shalcker · 02/25/11, 5:48 PM

Originally Posted by Omniwank

I updated the Recuperate info. Double Ambush/Evis during Shadow Dance is only possible once due to energy restrictions, and that is assuming you are at full energy/Recuperate duration when you initiate it. On the same note, 4 Ambushes and 2 Eviscerates are achievable without the glyph - again with full energy and Recuperate up. As these are impractical, best-case scenarios, you basically need the stars to align to get anything out of those extra 2 seconds, and since the spec is already convoluted enough, it's difficult to recommend the glyph.

You're getting to 80-90 energy in about 4-5 seconds in most practical scenarios as Subtlety. I don't think asking for 5 second foresight before using your major DPS cooldown is too much. You don't need full duration on Recuperate, all you need is for it to be up when you are entering Shadow Dance, which should be true most of the time.

Your "margin of error" with glyph during Shadow Dance increases to 2-3 seconds instead of 1 without it, so glyph makes it much easier to use, and you can even fit Tricks or Feint into it without breaking last Ambush.

Let's see how 5/2 happens in "normal" rotation:

t	Ability	-E	Base	Recup	RS	+E	Net	Energy
x								100
0	Ambush*	-40	12	12	0	24	-16	84
1	Evis	-35	12	0	25	37	2	86
2	Ambush	-40	12	0	0	12	-28	58
3	Ambush	-40	12	12	0	24	-16	42
4	Evis	-35	12	0	25	37	2	44
5	Ambush**	-40	12	0	0	12	-28	16
6	wait	0	12	12	0	24	24	40
7	Ambush	-40	12	0	0	12	-28	22

* - Either entering with 2+ CPs, or using Premeditation here.
** - Non-glyphed Shadow Dance ends here.

So far differences aren't that big... you still get one extra Ambush.
But let's extend timeline toward end of Find Weakness:

t	Ability	-E	Base	Recup	RS	+E	Net	Energy
07	Ambush	-40	12	0	0	12	-28	22
08	SnD	-25	12	0	25	37	12	34
09	wait	0	12	12	0	24	24	48
10	BS+HaT	-40	12	0	0	12	-28	20
11	wait	0	12	0	0	12	12	32
12	HaT	0	12	12	0	24	24	56
13	BS	-40	12	0	0	12	-28	28
14	HaT	0	12	0	0	12	12	40
15	Evis	-35	12	12	25	49	13	53
16	BS	-40	12	0	0	12	-28	25
17	wait*	0	12	0	0	12	12	37

* - Find Weakness ends here
We're easily fitting next Eviscerate and 3 Backstabs into Find Weakness, with a few seconds to spare.

How it goes with non-glyphed Shadow Dance?

t	Ability	-E	Base	Recup	RS	+E	Net	Energy
05	Ambush	-40	12	0	0	12	-28	16
06	wait	0	12	12	0	24	24	40
07	HaT	0	12	0	0	12	12	52
08	BS	-40	12	0	0	12	-28	24
09	HaT*	0	12	12	0	24	24	48
10	SnD	-25	12	0	25	37	12	56
11	HaT	0	12	0	0	12	12	68
12	BS	-40	12	12	0	24	-16	52
13	HaT	0	12	0	0	12	12	64
14	BS	-40	12	0	0	12	-28	36
15	HaT+Evis**	-35	12	12	25	49	13	49

* - Potential wasted HaT Combopoint; you're getting dangerously close to capping energy if you delay backstabs
** - Find Weakness ends here
We're barely getting last 5CP Eviscerate by getting HaT every 2 seconds, and in practical scenarios you might only get 4 CP there as Find Weakness ends...

So, by NOT using Shadow Dance glyph you're forcing people to use much more strict and a lot less forgiving rotation...
Why wouldn't you take easier rotation vs +10% crit on one finisher, considering that they are comparable dps?

Omniwank · 02/25/11, 7:03 PM

I have spent some time testing both, and I am unable to perform the fifth Ambush before Shadow Dance wears off (it's about 1-1.5 seconds short). This is with 100 energy and timing Recuperate to tick as it does in your chart, and that is being very lenient considering in most cases you will Shadow Dance with slightly less energy to prevent capping and wasting Recup ticks. It would help if anyone else can test glyphed SD to see if they can achieve 5 Ambushes and 2 Eviscerates using the rotation above.

As for unglyphed SD, I can repeat the 4 Ambushes, but that is while GCD locked and with only 0.5 seconds left on Shadow Dance. That leaves zero room for error and also being lenient with 100 starting energy. It is probably safe to assume the average player is going to do 3 Ambushes unglyphed and 4 glyphed, neither rotation being more difficult.