Cataclysm Subtlety Compendium - Page 5

Interferenz · 03/09/11, 2:07 AM

Made some calculations based on shadowcraft spread sheet for unheeded warning:

Mainhand Ep : about 6.7
Offhand Ep: about 1.19

Proc: [ (680/1,8) * 6,73 + (680/1,4) * 1,19] * 0,2 = 623,551 Ep

Agi: 321 * 3,64 = 1168,440 Ep

Together: 1791,99 Ep

Please correct me if i am wrong, but it seems unheeded warning is a pretty good trinket for subtlety rogues.

with best regards

Shadowwaltz · 03/09/11, 3:14 AM

Originally Posted by Interferenz

Made some calculations based on shadowcraft spread sheet for unheeded warning:

Mainhand Ep : about 6.7
Offhand Ep: about 1.19

Proc: [ (680/1,8) * 6,73 + (680/1,4) * 1,19] * 0,2 = 623,551 Ep

Agi: 321 * 3,64 = 1168,440 Ep

Together: 1791,99 Ep

Please correct me if i am wrong, but it seems unheeded warning is a pretty good trinket for subtlety rogues.

with best regards

That's about what I thought it would be. About the same as H Cyclone (actually a little better by your estimate), better than Fluid Death, worse than H Prestor's.

Synek · 03/09/11, 7:28 AM

I've been playing Sub for a few months now, and although it's Sub optimal in a lot of situations, there are a few fights where Shadow Step and other utility abilities really shine to make Sub a very very good spec. One of those fights is Omnotron. I have a log from a few weeks back (I have since taken a break from raiding), that really shows Subtlety's potential, as it's very good at target switching (Bested by Combat only due to Redirect affecting BG).

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Uptimes were lower than I generally like to have (90-95%), but any movement fight will cause that.

One thing that I really love about Subtlety, however, is that you never have too little energy to be able to kick, due to Backstab Glyph and Recuperate energy ticks, along with high amounts of Haste, which (Contrary to what many would like to believe) makes interrupting quite an easy job as Subtlety, provided you put kick in your ShD/Vanish bars.

Overall I think it's a situational spec which shines on some fights but falls on it's face on others due to Backstab, and since it's gear setup fits almost perfectly with Combat, it's not so much of a burden if you would like to be able to provide the extra damage that Combat would give.

Interferenz · 03/09/11, 8:28 AM

Found something very interresting:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

31k Dps on Chogall 25 NHC with a 0/10/31 spec ??

Has anyone else tried this out?

Feist-Mok · 03/09/11, 8:33 AM

Originally Posted by Interferenz

Found something very interresting:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

31k Dps on Chogall 25 NHC with a 0/10/31 spec ??

Has anyone else tried this out?

Oh hey, he let his Corruption stack to 100 and used cooldowns to stay alive without heals for the rest of the fight while doing double damage.

While that's certainly viable, if your raid is going to go to the trouble of rolling cooldowns on somone for a gimmick like this.... well, mages are a much better choice, as their cooldowns are better suited for the specific difficulties you run into doing this, and, perhaps more importantly, they benefit not only from the double damage, but from all of their spells - notably, Pyroblast - being made instant cast, and thus, spammable.

Edit: Also, if you are intent on doing something like this to pad meters, there's absolutely nothing subtlety specific. See: Heroic records for assassination, and the top two normal mode Mut parses as well

Interferenz · 03/09/11, 8:49 AM

Originally Posted by Feist-Mok

Oh hey, he let his Corruption stack to 100 and used cooldowns to stay alive without heals for the rest of the fight while doing double damage.

While that's certainly viable, if your raid is going to go to the trouble of rolling cooldowns on somone for a gimmick like this.... well, mages are a much better choice, as their cooldowns are better suited for the specific difficulties you run into doing this, and, perhaps more importantly, they benefit not only from the double damage, but from all of their spells - notably, Pyroblast - being made instant cast, and thus, spammable.

Thank you. Didn´t thought about that.

Eviljamjar · 03/09/11, 7:28 PM

Hello - I'm not a regular here, however I've been playing Subtelty for the past few weeks. I've noticed that Ambush does nowhere enar the damage of a backstab and the gap between has been increasingly larger with gear. Is this normal?

The only benefit I can see to using ambush is for find weakness and additional combo points.
Garrote also provides the same if I am not mistaken, I've been using garrote over ambush now, apart from shadowdances, where I apply a garrote last, and it appears to be a slight increase over the extra ambushes.

I'm not good with the maths behind it, but the damage of garrote over it's duration is roughly 2k more than my average Ambush which is 17k (Critical)

I would have expected ambush to scale the same, if not better than backstabs - but the difference in ambush crits has been 2k, where backstabs have gone from 14k-29k.

I don't doubt that I may be missing something here - never the less, Garrote is worth a look, it's working for me.

Shadowwaltz · 03/09/11, 7:47 PM

Ambush is better than backstab because it has a 30% higher crit chance. It's the same situation with hunters who use aimed shot instead of chimera over 80%; even though it has a longer cast, its crit chance is so much higher it more than makes up for it. You also have to consider using ambush adds another 10 seconds to find weakness, which is pretty important for overall DPS. Backstab crits are higher than ambush because of lethality, tho.

I could see garrote being a good option for putting up the first find weakness, but once find weakness actually is up, ambush should be hitting a lot harder than garrote. You can't overwrite a garrote anyways, so it's not like you have a choice.

Omniwank · 03/09/11, 9:27 PM

There's a few reasons to use Ambush over Garrote at the start. Garrote only awards one combo point while Ambush gives two. An Ambush crit also procs HaT at the start, so it normally gives 3 CPs, 5 when combined with Premeditation. The best Garrote can give at the start is 4, and that's with both Premeditation and an Initiative proc. Last, Garrote costs 5 more energy than Ambush. Since your first 5 cps should be dumped into Rupture, you won't be gaining the SV bonus any faster using Garrote.

Omniwank · 03/10/11, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Previn

I can confirm that Chimaeron, durring the Feud you CAN backstab him from the front while grouped up. In fact you also can no longer backstab him from behind durring the Feud.

This is not true. I tested it multiple times from different angles last night on Heroic difficulty and you cannot Backstab during Feud while he is facing you.

Meijnrr · 03/10/11, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Omniwank

This is not true. I tested it multiple times from different angles last night on Heroic difficulty and you cannot Backstab during Feud while he is facing you.

I'm guessing when that happened to him it was on normal and there is a mechanic in place that while Chimaeron's heads are fighting his front is his back, so because you did it on heroic it didn't work. But I could be wrong and he was just mistaken about the frontal backstab in the first place.

ieatpaperbag · 03/10/11, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Meijnrr

I'm guessing when that happened to him it was on normal and there is a mechanic in place that while Chimaeron's heads are fighting his front is his back, so because you did it on heroic it didn't work. But I could be wrong and he was just mistaken about the frontal backstab in the first place.

I did this encounter on hard mode this past Tuesday; you can backstab him from the front while the cast bar for feud is visible. Once the cast bar disappears (this does not happen on normal mode), you will not be able to backstab him from the front.

Omniwank · 03/10/11, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by ieatpaperbag

I did this encounter on hard mode this past Tuesday; you can backstab him from the front while the cast bar for feud is visible. Once the cast bar disappears (this does not happen on normal mode), you will not be able to backstab him from the front.

That makes sense if there is there is only a short window to Backstab at the start of the cast, however on Normal when we stack on his tail for Feud I had no issue using Backstab while he was facing the opposite direction, which is still at odds with what Previn reported. I also know that at the start of Feud (Heroic) I was still able to Backstab him from behind while the tanks were moving to the raid to stack, which shouldn't be possible either if Feud reverses his hit box.

Jodou · 03/10/11, 1:52 PM

Originally Posted by Istaril

I'm almost certain you can backstab during Feud, so this isn't an issue on normal. From what I understand of the heroic mechanics, though, it doesn't favor subtlety.

I apologize for not being more clear: parry mechanics still apply during the feud, which gives a clear advantage to Assassination given the primary sources of damage.

nepsi · 03/10/11, 7:14 PM

I used the following options extracted from the shadowcraft engine for reforging into sublety:

<want_reforge>
	hit = hst,exp,crit
	mst = hst,exp,hit,crit
	exp = hst,hit,crit
	cri = hst,hit
</want_reforge>

<ep_values>
	hit=1.21  # yellow hit
	hst=1.16
	cri=1.04
	exp=0.99
	mst=0.70
</ep_values>

<caps>
    exp = 781
    hit = 481
</caps>

# EP values for capped stats after the cap.
<ep_values_post>
	exp = 0
#	hit = 0.63  # Mutilate white hit after spell hit
#	hit = 0.99  # Combat white hit after spell hit
	hit = 0.9   # Sublety spell hit after yellow hit
</ep_values_post>

Resulting in

Suggested reforge options (only those that you need to change): 
mst -> hst  	(Head)  Tsanga's Helm
--- no ---  	(Neck)  Amulet of Dull Dreaming
hit -> hst  	(Shoulder)  Embrace of the Night
mst -> hst  	(Chest)  Sark of the Unwatched
mst -> hst  	(Waist)  Belt of Nefarious Whispers
--- no ---  	(Legs)  Aberration's Leggings
--- no ---  	(Feet)  Treads of Fleeting Joy
hit -> cri  	(Wrist)  Poison Fang Bracers
mst -> hst  	(Hands)  Double Attack Handguards
mst -> cri  	(Finger)  Signet of the Elder Council
hit -> hst  	(Finger)  Lightning Conductor Band
hit -> hst  	(Trinket)  Fluid Death
mst -> hst  	(Trinket)  Tia's Grace
--- no ---  	(Ranged)  Lightningflash
mst -> hst  	(Back)  Razor-Edged Cloak
cri -> hst  	(MH)  Vicious Gladiator's Shanker
hit -> hst  	(OH)  Scaleslicer
===============
 Resulting stats:
hit: 719 
mst: 844 
hst: 1589 
exp: 246 
cri: 1587 
Resulting EP: 5124.27, 942.83 gained

So the only difference to the OP is, that for my gear crit comes out better than expertise. So it's safe to assume to just dump everything into the main stat haste, and the rest into whatever comes next. Hit cap will be no issue I figure, there is plenty hit on all equip.