Blind duration against enemy NPCs is now 1 minute, while the duration against players remains 8 seconds.
Stealth now once again begins its cooldown once the rogue leaves Stealth.
Moderator Note: As usual, please keep conversation constructive, don't whine, etc.
Haven't had a chance to run the numbers, but it seems to me that value of the second one is going to depend quite a bit on whether it can select hit and expertise as stats to increase, or just crit/haste/mastery.
Those are downright AMAZING. If I'm reading it right, the 4pc bonus is a permanent 25% buff to Haste, Crit or Mastery the entire fight, changing every time you tricks.
I just did some very rough napkinmath on them with a guildie; here's what we came up with.
2pc: On Chim tonight, about 30% of my damage was from melee crits; hence gaining 6% damage from those sources is roughly a 1.8% DPS boost; BIS T11 DPS is around 25k, so we're looking at ~450 DPS = ~400 EP from the set bonus. So quite good. However, if the buffs overwrite each other (which they very well might), it will be significantly less good.
4pc: Lets assume the worst case scenario, that it can effect hit and expertise. In my current gear, I have 876 crit (.92 EP each), 197 exp (1.08 EP), 846 haste (1.22 EP), 2166 mastery (1.27 EP), 1338 hit (.75 EP each), which, when multiplied out, is 290 EP average buff. However, that's quite RNG - a mastery proc is worth ~700 EP, which significantly drags the average up; if you get a lot of them, it'll be amazing; if you don't get very many (which can easily happen), its... significantly less good.
So: both are pretty good - better than either of our T11 set bonuses, based on early estimates.
I agree that the 4pc bonus looks VERY nice IF what Aldriana brought up isn't an issue. If there's a chance of proccing hit or expertise, that'll definitely bring down the value of that bonus. But I personally don't think that'll be the case. Putting hit and expertise on a passive proc isn't something that I think would make any sense for Blizz. Plus it would sort of break their current model for the use and application of hit and expertise in game.
I'm a bit more concerned with the 2pc. Does anyone else anticipate this to be a little underpowered given current crit chances? I personally have fairly low crit and feel this 2pc might be a bit of a disappointment. Though, when placed against the current 4pc T11, I still think it'll be a step up.
Using Aldriana's example numbers, that works out to an average of 382 EP
Using my rogue's gear (combat, not as well geared as Aldriana)
Haste: 753 EP (1.36*2214*.25)
Mastery: 178 EP (636*1.12*.25)
Crit: 129 EP (567*.91*.25)
Average: 353 EP, but the spread between crit and haste is very large.
BiS assassination gear: 400 EP
BiS combat gear: 439 EP
Last edited by jaxdahl : 05/05/11 at 2:36 AM.
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That's 382 EP in Aldriana's current gear. The actual value of it for Mutilate in high end t12 would probably be in the mid 500's (maybe 540-570), if I were to hazard a guess that is.
To contrast, I gaged it at about ~349 EP in my own current gear. So as much as I would love to see this go live, I'm anticipating it to be reduced, possibly to 20%, if not a few percent below that.
A couple of other details to keep in mind:
1) The interaction with proc trinkets must be kept in mind; a nontrivial number of Tricks over the course of a fight will be cast with such things procced, and getting a haste proc with a ~2000 crit or hit proc (from Cyclone or Prestors) is a good couple hundred extra EP for that proc.
2) This will also increase the value of the 3 rating stats by 8.33% (25%, times 1/3 uptime each), which, for instance, bumps my mastery EP from 1.27 to 1.38, haste from 1.21 to 1.31, and so on. This is on top of the normal increases you would expect to see as gear improves. Hence, rating stats will be worth markedly more than they currently are, and in particular will start to pass the critical threshhold of 1/2 the value of a point of Agi, which causes a lot more socket bonuses to be worth getting (for instance, all agi socket bonuses become worth it, whereas currently many aren't). Hence, our rating values will be that much higher as well.
Returning to the 2pc for a moment: taking a look at a recent Chimaeron parse from my guild's combat rogue, it appears that Combat gets closer to 40% of its damage from melee crits; hence, good as the 2pc bonus is likely to be for Mutilate, odds are its better still for Combat.
A couple of other details to keep in mind:
1) The interaction with proc trinkets must be kept in mind; a nontrivial number of Tricks over the course of a fight will be cast with such things procced, and getting a haste proc with a ~2000 crit or hit proc (from Cyclone or Prestors) is a good couple hundred extra EP for that proc.
So it seems like it's better to wait a sec. when you trinket like Prestors is rdy.
And maybe Hurricane is better then Landslide.
Really hope it can't proc expertise because that would make the 4 piece worth 0 EP whenever it did proc expertise for a Combat Rogue or you might have to reforge in case it does proc? I don't know, either way it would cause an issue.
Let me preface this by saying all items are data-mined and subject to change, i.e. should not be taken at face value. This is simply to give an idea of what loot to expect from patch 4.2. EP values given are for Assassination only (Axes/Maces/Swords calculated for Combat).
You could probably add Flickering Wristbands to the list. These look like the new random enchanted epics. Also, regarding the cloak and 2 red sockets - it seems to have a lower combat rating allocation compared to, say the intellect cloak of the same ilvl, which could compensate for 2 extra gems.
Any thoughts on the progression of the item levels? T11 has 359 normal mode -> 372 heroic mode -> 379 Sinestra. Right now, I deducted for T12: 363 normal mode -> 378 heroic mode -> 391 Ragnaros heroic (?). Or rather 378 normal mode -> 391 heroic mode, with the load of 363 ilvl items being quest rewards and such.
Are T11-heroic raider meant to skip T12-normal mode? They'll have a vast advantage over raids progressing purely on normal modes, meaning either 359er raids will have a very hard time progressing through T12-normal or 372er raids will breeze through T12-normal.
Item level 363 is for crafted weapons only. The raid drops follow the standard gear tier formula: normal mode is half a tier higher than previous heroic mode content. So, 378 is normal mode, 391 is heroic.
So it seems like it's better to wait a sec. when you trinket like Prestors is rdy.
And maybe Hurricane is better then Landslide.
Regarding Hurricane: 450 Haste, even for combat, it maybe 700 EP; 33% uptime on a 25% buff increases that to about 760, which is still quite a bit less than the 1000 avalanche gives.
As for waiting on trinkets: taking a second look at those buffs, I suspect that they'll update dynamically: that is, they're a buff that gives a 25% boost to (say) haste, not a buff that gives temporary haste equal to 25% of your current total. So my guess would be that even if your trinket procced after the buff, it would still get the increase, which would make waiting unnecessary.
That said: if that's not the case, it might be worth waiting a few seconds on... but not very many. Keep in mind that you're creating downtime where you have *no* buff, *and* delaying the damage bonus on your target, in exchange for a 33% chance of a larger buff. There is some amount of time that its worth waiting for that, but its not going to be more than a few seconds.
To contrast, I gaged it at about ~349 EP in my own current gear. So as much as I would love to see this go live, I'm anticipating it to be reduced, possibly to 20%, if not a few percent below that.
So you want it nerfed to be comparable to our current set bonus? That's a pretty terrible rationalization. Just because our current set bonus is poor doesn't mean our future set bonus should be equally as bad. In fact, we haven't had one set bonus that's "amazing" since rupture critting and that was just a 5-8% increase, and that was all the back in Ulduar. While many other classes have enjoyed similar increases on their set bonuses, especially in ICC where almost every class got a straight up 5%~+ increase.
Originally Posted by Inthedârk
So it seems like it's better to wait a sec. when you trinket like Prestors is rdy.
And maybe Hurricane is better then Landslide.
No point to wait as the bonus lasts 30 sec, so its uptime should be very close to 100%. As for hurricane, landslide is almost double the EP of hurricane, so even if you got lucky and got the haste proc everytime it would still be a ways behind landslide.
This may sound stupid, but does the 4 piece bonus encourage balancing of the 3 stats (crit/haste/mastery) at all? In other words, is there any benefit to having equal amounts of the 3 stats (even if one is more powerful than the others), so that you don't end up with a chance of having a 1/3 or 2/3 chance to get a 25% buff to a small amount of comparatively weak rating? Or does this depend on just how much better the "primary" stat is compared to the other two?
This may sound stupid, but does the 4 piece bonus encourage balancing of the 3 stats (crit/haste/mastery) at all? In other words, is there any benefit to having equal amounts of the 3 stats (even if one is more powerful than the others), so that you don't end up with a chance of having a 1/3 or 2/3 chance to get a 25% buff to a small amount of comparatively weak rating? Or does this depend on just how much better the "primary" stat is compared to the other two?
Not particularly. Stacking your best stat makes the proc that much better 1/3 of the time. If you try to "smooth out" the levels of the three, you make your best proc worth less than it could be, while moderately increasing the runners-up.
So you want it nerfed to be comparable to our current set bonus? That's a pretty terrible rationalization. Just because our current set bonus is poor doesn't mean our future set bonus should be equally as bad. In fact, we haven't had one set bonus that's "amazing" since rupture critting and that was just a 5-8% increase, and that was all the back in Ulduar. While many other classes have enjoyed similar increases on their set bonuses, especially in ICC where almost every class got a straight up 5%~+ increase.
I'm not sure I'd describe our current set bonuses as "poor". I mean, 4/5 is worth getting, which is more than you could say for, for instance, T9. I don't think our current set bonuses are particularly good - they're not in a league with T8 rupture crits or T6 SnD speed - but they're by no means bad.
On the other hand, our T12 set bonuses are really, really good. Like, "not necessarily worth breaking 4pc normal to use heroic pieces" type good. We're talking "unless T13 set bonuses are equally good we'll wind up using T12 for quite a while in the next tier" type good. And, really, I'm not going to complain about getting powerful, valuable, bonuses... but its not unreasonable to note that these set bonuses *are* abnormally powerful, and there *are* some gearing oddities that result from that, so it wouldn't shock me if they do tone them down a bit.
...then again, it wouldn't shock me if they didn't. We'll just have to wait and see how it goes.
Originally Posted by Andeh
This may sound stupid, but does the 4 piece bonus encourage balancing of the 3 stats (crit/haste/mastery) at all? In other words, is there any benefit to having equal amounts of the 3 stats (even if one is more powerful than the others), so that you don't end up with a chance of having a 1/3 or 2/3 chance to get a 25% buff to a small amount of comparatively weak rating? Or does this depend on just how much better the "primary" stat is compared to the other two?
I'd make your bonuses less RNG but less powerful on average, which I'd argue is generally not worth it. If you have two otherwise comparable sets of gear but one has a more even stat distribution, that's potentially worth doing, but I certainly wouldn't reforge mastery to crit or anything. After all, there's a reason why, as an assassination rogue, your mastery is significantly higher than your crit.
Maybe poor was a bad choice of word, but as you said the set bonus isn't good either. If you look at our recent set bonuses, I'd say we got the short end of the stick when you compare it to other classes' set. As for T12, while it is really good, so are all the other classes' bonus as well. So I don't see any reason why they would tone ours down, unless they toned everyones down across the board.
So you want it nerfed to be comparable to our current set bonus?
Not quite. My thought process was that, as you also observed, that this is one of the strongest bonuses we've had. The consequence of being distinctly stronger is that it is more likely to be toned down, just as things that are distinctly weaker are more likely to be buffed.
Then there's the consideration of how spec's are balanced. I'm fairly sure that specs are balanced with their tier bonuses in mind, since it's typical for all specs to try and aim for 4p. So if Rogue DPS is and has been balanced with mediocre bonuses, one would expect the future bonuses to also be of similar level of potency.
It may be pessimistic, but it does have some rational behind it. There's many reasons why this could remain at 25% to a random stat for 30s every 30s, but there are still a number of reasons why it would be also be reduced in power. Both of them have reasoning behind them, but without being a part of the Dev team it's hard to say what their goal for Rogues is precisely.
All of this, of course, doesn't even consider the issue of how the EP value would scale past t12 content.
I think that last point is possibly the most interesting. This set bonus is going to scale very, very well as we continue to go up in tier. Every gear upgrade we get will directly increase the average rating granted by the bonus, in addition to the fact that the stats themselves become more powerful with time (i.e. 1 point of rating will be worth more damage in T12 than it is in T11, and even more still in T13). Its probably not a large enough increase that we'll wind up using the set bonus indefinitely - the raw agi you gain by going up a tier is not to be trifled with - but it is worth keeping in mind that this set bonus will scale very, very, well.
Regarding Hurricane: 450 Haste, even for combat, it maybe 700 EP; 33% uptime on a 25% buff increases that to about 760, which is still quite a bit less than the 1000 avalanche gives.
As for waiting on trinkets: taking a second look at those buffs, I suspect that they'll update dynamically: that is, they're a buff that gives a 25% boost to (say) haste, not a buff that gives temporary haste equal to 25% of your current total. So my guess would be that even if your trinket procced after the buff, it would still get the increase, which would make waiting unnecessary.
That said: if that's not the case, it might be worth waiting a few seconds on... but not very many. Keep in mind that you're creating downtime where you have *no* buff, *and* delaying the damage bonus on your target, in exchange for a 33% chance of a larger buff. There is some amount of time that its worth waiting for that, but its not going to be more than a few seconds.
Mh right, the buff scales with the stat valu you have in that sec. not you have when the buff comes.
Aldriana, for Shadowcraft, how would you recommend I approach implementing the 6pc? Just multiply those three ratings by 1.0825? I'd like to have this ready for practical testing ASAP.
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05/03/11, 3:51 AM
