What does crit have to do with the combo point generation of SS and its glyph?

Before jumping into conclusions about specs and glyps, some analysis must be done. Using hemorrhage (or sinister strike for that matter) yields an expected lower 'filler' dps but a higher IP application rate and higher amount of finishers (thanks to a better CP generation).

If we speccec subtlety like we did, it was because Puncturing Wounds was a clear winner (better than HAT actually, if no points where expent in Ruthlessness). Aggression (without the backstab component it equals Coup de Grace) and Imp. SnD (especialy with a higher finisher rate) are both fairly weak talents; spending 2 points into Imp. Recuperate to get to them would only make things even worse. Coup de Grace and Ruthlessness are not very appealing either, but Ruthlessness increases its value with a higher finisher rate too. All in all it boils down to a choice between 1 point to Ruthlessness or Precision; Thing is, Precision, while being in the lower end of the value per talent point, ranks higher than any other off-spec talent (not to forget 3/3 Precision provides more rating stats to reforge around), so the runner up seems to be 7/3/31.

I already hard-plugged hemorrhage into the subtlety cycle in Shadowcraft. The dps and EP results are very dependant on the hemorrhage formula which we haven't pinned down yet: I'm not totaly certain of the implications Sinister Calling has on it and we don't know for sure where and how to apply the new buff; in fact it'd be very helpfull if someone took the time to come up with the exact formula like we did with other damaging formulas during beta.

In the worst case scenario (Sinister Calling adds additively to the whole thing and the new 40% buff only applies additively to the 1.1 part of the formula for a final 190% weapon damage for non-daggers) using hemo as the only filler and using the aforementioned 7/3/31 yields a drop of about 8% dps (using other less optimal off-spec talents would cause the output to be 200-300 dps lower). As for Sinister Strike as the filler: modeling the glyph is a bit harder. I'm not very impressed with the results of Hemo, and SS would't be much better either; it was ruled out before, in lieu of backstab, and the situation has not changed much in that regard.

See that the only encounter where backstab is not an option in Firelands is Ragnaros and, from my testing, you can backstab him most of the time if set up correctly (admitedly you may need to stay in front of Majordomo Staghelm for a while too). Now, while I find some value in properly modeling hemo into Shadowcraft, we need to be aware that a clearly sub-optimal pve spec would be seriously gimped further down if we were to use any move other than backstab as the main CP builder. I believe the only real scenario would be that niche where the rogue is raiding in 10man without the bleed debuff and, even then, the real alternative would be to hemo once a minute.


EDIT: after some extensive talking with the guys over at Arena Junkies and a closer inspection of the Cataclysm Mechanics Testing thread here, I think I can fully recreate the hemorrhage formula (both the new buff and Sinister Calling stack multiplicatively) and will update/repost sometime tomorrow with more accurate data. However, some confirmation on the formula would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT 2:
The new hemorrhage formula described above (which is the best case scenario) pushes the value of Ruthlessness and Precision a lot closer to each other, being the final choice between the two a matter of what stats we could reforge around the extra hit. I ran some tests with 2/3 Precision (8/2/31) and the eviscerate glyph in place of backstab. Using hemo as the only filler with daggers represents a drop of ~6,10% dps and using a slow one hander a drop of ~5,83% dps.

For a more in-depth analysis, suffice to say that the massive drop of dps from the filler is a lot higher than the increase in overall uptime of procs, finishers and poison damage. I read in this thread some missconceptions about EP so, to clear it up a bit, let's say that the weights don't change dramatically: crit rating goes up and surpases by a hairbreadth the value of expertise under the dodge cap (as expected, due to the significant sink of combo builder crit chance, and to a much lesser extent thanks to the glyph of eviscerate). If anyone is interested in the actual breakdown feel free to PM me.

I don't have values for the glyph of hemorrhage yet, but it'd surprise me if, using hemo as the main CP builder, it proves to be competitive with Eviscerate which, by the way, would still rank than Shadow Dance (it can rank higher if using backstab, largely dependign on gear setups). Hemo usage every 24 secs to refresh the dot may be interesting though (having the Hemo glyph in place of Shadow Dance in that case).

EDIT 3: Update on the Glyph of Hemorrhage
The glyph is a lot stronger than before but still not enough. Using hemorrhage every 24'' to maximize the uptime of the glyph produces ~465dps from the dot. The lower overall dps form replacing backstabs plus the shorter duration of Shadow Dance (to replace the glyph) yields +-50 dps (it's generaly a decrease, depending on gear), not enough of a change to include it in the standard cycle.

All things considered we are back at square one: using hemorrhage (in conjunction with the glyph) is justifiable only to provide the bleed debuff.

Excuse me if this has been asked before but I have not been able to find an answer for my question atleast.

How is the T12 2pc set bonus going to affect the EP value of Crit rating in regards to other secondary stats?
I myself expect it to give a slight boost to the EP value of Crit, but not enough for it to surpass other stats, but is this correct?

Nextormento posted some early results several pages back in this thread (see his post for details). The only stat priority change seems to be that crit will be slightly better than white hit for combat.

The Hemo change is included in the next ptr build, and the tooltip now reads "Hemorrhage now deals 155% weapon damage (225% if a dagger is equipped)". From MMOC

Using the 4.2 options I see the statement Aldriana made regarding Mastery not scaling with Vile Poisons to be correct even at current levels.

Haste Rating 1.24
Mastery Rating 1.21.

It's only a small gap at the moment but as the gear level increases it should widen out, giving us more energy regen to work with.

Yes, Dazer is me; I had some trouble when setting up git.

The UI is flipping out a bit with subtlety glyphs when using hemo; that may be because the Glyph of Hemorrhage is NYI when hemo strikes are more frequent than every 24s. The engine should be throwing a 'not implemented' string as a value, just like talents, which is confusing but we don't have anything better yet for those cases. You can feed the subtlety settings for hemo with numbers too (no strings, plain numbers, int or float doesn't matter), which may be more usefull than hemo as the only cp builder: 24 (refresh the hemo dot) and 60 (refresh the bleed debuff) are the most interesting values.

I don't see anything mayor aside form that; nothing is final though (some of the trinket behaviours are merely guesses). As usual, thank you for such an amazing tool.

while these early results do tell so something about the EP values, it is with the 4pc bonus too. Which does implicate the on the values given. My question is only how the 2pc bonus alone is affecting the EP value of crit. I suspect the 4pc will decrease the value of crit since we don't have a lot if it to start with thus the 25% buff not giving as much crit as it gives mastery and haste.

Again I would love to hear from someone who have done some math on the 2pc effect on crit value. thx

You seem to have derailed a bit. EP value is per point and as such the influence of 1 point of crit will still increase by 25% due to the 4pc bonus, exactly like all the others. The EP value is not a reflection of how much of a stat you currently have but how much each point is worth relative to the alternatives.

Regarding the 2pc: even after reforging we should end up with more than enough crit% to get a crit every 4 seconds, which means the crit buff should be up most of the time already. As such I cannot imagine more than a minute correction in crit EP due to the 2pc, not nearly enough to boost it out of it's dark chasm of reforging (although the aforementioned 4pc boost might very well accomplish just that).

I see that I was not clear in my wording there, my apologies.
That aside I have clearly not understood the proc right if what you say is how it works. I was under the assumption that any single crit would do additional 6% dmg as fire over 4sec. So there would be a dot up for each single crit. But this seems not to be the case?

I don't think he arenas with older gear, but I know for a fact that he does it with old weapons, because he stomped our faces in doing it.