4.2 Changes Discussion - Page 15

• Aldriana · 06/27/11, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by yunero

Does it make sense to define some sort of haste cap for combat?
Especially if you have activated AR. I mean 1.7 seems a bit overrated to me in that regard, at least for the energy reg part of it. It is currently already very hard to not cap energy with AR/Bloodlust activated. I don't want to know how hard it will be in BiS T12.

BIS T12 doesn't really have that much more haste than BIS T11. The gear set I've put together has 2471 haste; given that BIS T11 cracks 2200, we're talking an extra 2% haste, which shouldn't make the energy capping problem too much worse.

That said: I do think some manner of energy capping model for ShadowCraft would be worth looking into; I consider it less important than fixing the Assassination cycle, but I do hope to get to it at some point.

Roguedurr · 06/27/11, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

First, Combat gets hurt a lot more by target switching than Assassination. As bad as target switching is for Assassination, its much worse for Combat. So on fights like Omnotron and Conclave with frequent target switches, or Atramedes with its significant interruptions, Combat suffers a lot more.

I tend to disagree with this comment, atleast with my point of view (which could be incorrect). Why would combat suffer more from target switching? The type of add I have in mind when thinking about this, is the big adds on Cho'gall.

The 2 things that combat needs to ramp up are poisons, not as vital in terms of damage compared to assassination. IP and DP poisons make up around 22% and Bandits Guile. To get the 5 stacks of dp poison up for combat, I estimate its around 15sec. (this estimate could be incorrect) The issue of dps loss from Bandit's Guile is something that can be managed or at least lessened though Redirect. Some of the positives for combat is auto-attacks and slice and dice. Because of slice and dice's long uptime per application, it should be already up when reaching the new target. If refreshed to its 5 point value prior, it may also not even need to be refreshed while on the new target. In terms of auto-attacks, a large source of damage, their is no ramp up time assuming slide and dice is active. As soon as you get on the new target its active.

For assassination, I feel the ramp up-time on a new target hurts it tremendously. The ramp up time for assassination is rupture, DP, and slice and dice if it is not managed properly. The ramp up time for rupture is not to harsh. Within a few seconds, you can mutilate the new target for combo points and apply rupture. The main ramp up time issue is with DP. I do not know the average time it take for a assassination rogue to get 5 stacks of DP up, if someone had a good estimate, that would be much appreciated. During this time where your waiting for 5 stacks of DP, your damage from DP and IP would obviously be gimped. Less IP procs from the 5 DP procs, less damage from DP itself etc. The other issue the effect of not having 5 dp stacks is on Envenom. With out 5 DP stacks, Envenom can not do its full potential damage. It will more then likely happen where you will have to Envenom before 5 stacks. Because of the short uptime of slice and dice, and the time moving from the boss to the add, slice and dice will be needing to be refreshed rather quickly when getting to the new add. You will thus need to Envenom without 5 stacks of DP to refresh it.

Disclaimer: It is very possible I am looking at this incorrectly, or underestimating or over-estimating certain aspects. As well as I am not be presenting my thoughts well or concise. Their is 2 out-comes from me posting this. 1. I may actually bring up good points (probably not likely) 2. Someone is gonna tell me why I am wrong. Thus I learn something. Either way win-win.

It would be nice if someone could post (which might been posted before but I missed) the average DP ramp up times for both specs, as well tell me why I may be wrong.

Docrev · 06/27/11, 1:51 PM

Actually, due to Improved Poisons and the fact that Mutilate strikes with both weapons, Assassination should be significantly faster than Combat at getting to a five stack of Deadly Poison. If we stick with your 15 second assumption for five stacks for Combat, Improved Poisons, by itself, would lower that to 12 seconds. Factor in a few Mutilates, and you'd be down to, say, 8 or 9 seconds. And if you have to throw a weaker Envenom in to keep Slice and Dice up, you also benefit from the improved chance of applying Deadly Poison for the duration of the envenom effect, decreasing the time to a full stack of Deadly Poison even more.

Roguedurr · 06/27/11, 2:27 PM

Only 1 part of an Mutilate attack has the chance to apply DP, the off hand part. The main hand part of Mutilate can only apply IP. For combat, DP itself doesn't really generate much damage (around 10%ish). Instant poison is the poison that actual does damage for combat, not DP. You also have to factor in that combat will be doing more off hand attacks then assassination due to pure haste and increased weapon speed from talents in a given set of time. For combat, atleast for me, it take about 2-3sec. to proc a IP from DP after 5 stacks are up.

• Aldriana · 06/27/11, 2:34 PM

Redirect is a useful tool, but its not a panacea. It doesn't help with interruptions on a single DPS target (Nef, Atramedes, Chimaeron, Ascendant Council, Sinestra). It doesn't help with swaps that are more frequent than every 30 seconds. It doesn't help with the fact that you lose damage from your self-buffs ticking down as you run from target to target. And while Combat may lose less poison damage to swaps, it still loses some.

There's also the fact that in this context the amount of time it takes to ramp up isn't the only useful measure. For instance: yes, Mutilate gets DP stacked up faster than Combat. But regardless of how much time it takes, you still lose 5 IP procs, and those do more damage for Mutilate than they do for combat. Hence: even if you ramp up faster, you can lose more damage en route.

So: yes, if you can reliably redirect your Insight for every switch and have no long interruptions, yes, Combat will trump Mutilate on swaps. In practice you can't, and once you start losing Insight stacks to swaps and interruptions on any sort of a regular basis, the amount of damage lost quickly surpasses the difference in restacking DP.

Originally Posted by Roguedurr

Only 1 part of an Mutilate attack has the chance to apply DP, the off hand part. The main hand part of Mutilate can only apply IP.

Yes, but that's still one more chance to apply DP than Sinister Strike gets.

Beepbeeps · 06/27/11, 3:25 PM

Another frustrating part of Redirect is that without combo points you cannot redirect insight. I find that, due to random timing, I'll need to swap to a new add and have just dumped my 5 point finisher. Now I could wait a second and a half to get the energy for a SS, but that time wasted on the add is a problem too. Just seems like inconsistent behavior, but I guess it keeps you from blowing the cooldown accidentally?

orderofmaken · 06/27/11, 3:38 PM

I take it that Flamebinding Girdle from reputation won't be bis, since from what I can see there is only VP and boe drops that can be upgraded via the shards to heroic ilv. Leaving only the boe drop belt.

• Aldriana · 06/27/11, 3:41 PM

Wowhead has a heroic version of it listed so I presume there's a way of getting it. If not, then Riplimb's Lost Collar would be the way to go.

Roguedurr · 06/27/11, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Yes, but that's still one more chance to apply DP than Sinister Strike gets.

I kind of took that as assumed knowledge.

This line is confusing me. I am more then likely reading it incorrectly It kind of sounds like your agreeing with me, but I don't think so.
"There's also the fact that in this context the amount of time it takes to ramp up isn't the only useful measure. For instance: yes, Mutilate gets DP stacked up faster than Combat. But regardless of how much time it takes, you still lose 5 IP procs, and those do more damage for Mutilate than they do for combat. Hence: even if you ramp up faster, you can lose more damage en route."

The type of add I had in mind was 1 that you would be on for about 30sec. If the add is going to live shorter then that, say the fire or shadow elemental on Heroic Cho'gal, I believe rogues shouldn't be assigned to this. This should be for good target switching classes, aka range. If swap are happening frequently, say switching every 10-15 sec, sure I can see assassination doing better cause assassination will have chances to get 5 DP and combat will have almost no moments of benefit from BG.

I tend to look look at it in phases if you spend 30sec on a new target without redirect:

Enroute: this is essentially the time it takes to get off the old target to the new target. We are not physically attacking anything. This may last 1-3sec During this time, the stacks of DP ticking on the previous will benefit assassination more. I would guess around 2600 per tick advantage. I may have been underestimating this factor before.

On Target, before 5 DP applied by either: During this period I would think combat has the advantage regardless of BG. More APM and auto attack kicks right in How long this period last. This period would last until the first spec, more then likely assassination, get to 5 dp. Its this 5sec? 8sec? 12 sec? How much of advantage?

Period where Ass. has 5 DP and until combat gets 5 DP: During this time I would believe assassination would do more damage because it is starting to get IP procs. How long does this period last. 3sec? 5sec?

5 DP for both: I would believe combat would do more damage in this period, especially after some insight starts kicking in.

I know this doesn't help too much cause I am not applying actually numbers nor am I applying solid estimation of how long it take to get 5 DP stacks of poison.

shadostalker · 06/27/11, 3:51 PM

The BiS Mace for MH combat is a random drop off the first four bosses. So technically its a boss drop just the first four all have a chance to drop it. Not sure is someone already posted this if so i will delete.

• Aldriana · 06/27/11, 4:45 PM

Originally Posted by Roguedurr

I kind of took that as assumed knowledge.

I guess I don't understand the point of your comment, then. I mean, yes, Mutilate only has 1 chance to apply DP, but the statement was that, because Mutilate hits with both weapons (among other reasons), it stacks poison faster than Combat does. Which is true. So why the clarification that it only provides one extra proc chance, when that in no way invalidates the observation you're responding to?

As for the rest: yes, Assassination loses more damage to poison than Combat - it just loses it over a shorter amount of time. My point is that the damage lost to Bandit's Guile stacking cannot be discounted. Sometimes you can use Redirect to reduce this... but a lot of times you can't. If you get MCed on Nef during Deep Insight, so much for your 30% damage buff. Likewise Atramedes taking off, Magmaw switching into or out of head form, having to kite orbs on Sinestra, having to kite or run out for lightning on Ascendant Council, and so on. If you're not on elementals for Cho'gall, you're probably on the big adds, and while you can redirect either two or from them, you usually can't get both. The list of ways in which Insight can screw you over even when you're not doing the super ultra burst jobs is not short.

Plus, Combat usually loses more damage to wasting SnD uptime and/or energy capping while switching targets than Assassination does, which further increases its penalties.

So: yes, if you just look at poison, Mutilate's ramp-up is steeper and shorter, resulting in a higher total damage loss. But there are many other factors that work against Combat which help explain why its real-world performance tends not to be as good as a Patchwerk-style model may suggest.

Scoparli · 06/27/11, 4:58 PM

When it comes to loss of damage i'd say that Combat loses more damage compared to poison with a deep insight loss in target switching. Deep insight is the only thing that makes combat worth while IMO and even killing spree is almost useless without it.
At least with assassination You have other things up like rupture that are easily switchable, with combat Deep insight is the only "debuff" you have on the target that needs to be reapplied. Which can take awhile, and even if you only have to target switch to kill a small add you probably wont even get deep insight up at all.

With most Target switching while assassination i usually just leave rupture up on the previous target while i kill the new one.

Would it also be reasonable to say that the damage loss of not attacking anything for even a second is greater for combat than assassination?

telethar · 06/27/11, 5:43 PM

it would probably depend on how long you are interrupted. With absolutely no numbers to back this up, at first combat will get hurt more because you will energy cap quicker given more haste and smaller energy pool, and your active energy regen is cut off where rupture can still tick. Once both cap on energy then I'd imagine mutilate might rapidly catch up in the amount of damage lost, and in the end both would nearly equal out given you are doing 0 dps and both specs do roughly the same overall dps.
If neither are energy capping then it's probably too convoluted to answer simply, what point is bandit's guile at? Are your cooldowns active, or waiting to be used? Do you have envenom running?
But again, I don't have numbers so I could be wrong and it's simply just a binary thing (aka combat always gets hurt more).

Roguedurr · 06/27/11, 7:21 PM

Don't get me wrong, I don't think combat is good at target switching by any means. I think both specs are horrible at it for similar and unique reasons. Its more of a debate on the lesser of 2 evils.

In terms of energy capping while moving to the new target, I don't think its a dps loss. I think energy capping is only a problem when it can be prevented. If you stop pressing your keys to wipe your noise and you energy cap, it could of been prevented. In a case of moving from the 1 target to the other, if the time frame is so long, and you do all you can, like dump all your energy before you dis-engage, your sprinting etc. and you energy cap, its not a real loss. You just get to have a bunch of energy so you can burst when you actually get their.

In terms of real life performance, looking at the average of top 40 logs for each specs can have the possibility of being mis-leading. If you took the top 100 rogues who are 13/13 heroic, in BIS, I would 80 of them are assassination. The if you try to take an average of them, assassination with get their average from 40 good rogues, and combat would only have an average of 20 good combat rogues, and then 20 other people of lesser quality. Thus compromise the data. Their is just a bigger pool of assassination then combat to provide good data. I mean their is some top flight rogues out their that are not posting logs being in BIS too. Rakez from Paragon as an example. If you look at a fight like Chimaeron, the top log is actually from combat at 31k, where the average says assassination is better. Overall I think logs have too many variables and inconsistency's for them to be a true measure.

I believe, and I could be wrong, that assassination is much more popular to play. If you told an assassination rogue that combat definitively does 3-5% more damage, they would still play assassination cause its funner and a easier rotation cause of less APM. Even in fights where blade flurry is a hands down winner, they will still play assassination-.

I will concede the point that assassination is the overall better spec in practice in t11. The mechanics tend to be better suited for assassination. Their is no fight that it does "bad" on. Where their is cases like this for combat. Like you said before, mechanics is by the far the most important factor.

Scoparli · 06/27/11, 7:47 PM

Originally Posted by Roguedurr

Don't get me wrong, I don't think combat is good at target switching by any means. I think both specs are horrible at it for similar and unique reasons. Its more of a debate on the lesser of 2 evils.

In terms of energy capping while moving to the new target, I don't think its a dps loss. I think energy capping is only a problem when it can be prevented. If you stop pressing your keys to wipe your noise and you energy cap, it could of been prevented. In a case of moving from the 1 target to the other, if the time frame is so long, and you do all you can, like dump all your energy before you dis-engage, your sprinting etc. and you energy cap, its not a real loss. You just get to have a bunch of energy so you can burst when you actually get their.

In terms of real life performance, looking at the average of top 40 logs for each specs can have the possibility of being mis-leading. If you took the top 100 rogues who are 13/13 heroic, in BIS, I would 80 of them are assassination. The if you try to take an average of them, assassination with get their average from 40 good rogues, and combat would only have an average of 20 good combat rogues, and then 20 other people of lesser quality. Thus compromise the data. Their is just a bigger pool of assassination then combat to provide good data. I mean their is some top flight rogues out their that are not posting logs being in BIS too. Rakez from Paragon as an example. If you look at a fight like Chimaeron, the top log is actually from combat at 31k, where the average says assassination is better. Overall I think logs have too many variables and inconsistency's for them to be a true measure.

I believe, and I could be wrong, that assassination is much more popular to play. If you told an assassination rogue that combat definitively does 3-5% more damage, they would still play assassination cause its funner and a easier rotation cause of less APM. Even in fights where blade flurry is a hands down winner, they will still play assassination-.

I will concede the point that assassination is the overall better spec in practice in t11. The mechanics tend to be better suited for assassination. Their is no fight that it does "bad" on. Where their is cases like this for combat. Like you said before, mechanics is by the far the most important factor.

I would also suggest that from what i can tell for pve in t12 content, just as in t11 Preference also plays a big roll in which spec is better, Considering the dps of each is close and both have great raid utility. Most likely ill Just have both specs and use which ever one is best for the current encounter, gearing and reforging for combat as my Main spec.