4.2 Changes Discussion - Page 6

Chult86 · 05/26/11, 7:06 PM

Sub has a DPS boost coming (albeit tiny)

Correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't the change to Sanguinary Veins pretty much a flat 6% buff to Subtlety? Assuming you don't suck and keep Rupture up.

Pathal · 05/26/11, 7:24 PM

6% increase to a spec that's already noticibly behind every other spec, and in comparison to the ~5% that Mutilate will receive, yes. It's to small to be of enough importance and make Sub a decent real PvE spec.

EDIT: I failed and confused two things, 5% as Aldriana noted looks right.

• Aldriana · 05/26/11, 9:02 PM

Not quite sure where people are getting 7.5%; looks like closer to 5% to me. Vile Poisons stacks additively with Mastery so (assuming you have ~20 mastery, which is typical for near-BIS) its a 2.06/1.9 = 8.4% boost to your IP/DP damage, and a 1.2/1.15 = 4.3% boost to your autoattack, mutilate, backstab, and envenom damage, with no buff at all to venomous wounds (I don't remember off the top of my head whether Assassin's Resolve applies to Rupture/Garotte, but they're minor sources of damage anyway). So its, say, 8.4% to a third of our damage, 4.3% to half of it, and no boost at all to the rest, which looks like rather less than 7.5% to me. When I worked it out for my Chimaeron kill this week, it boosts my 8300262 damage to 8729643, a 5.2% boost. Nice, certainly, but lets put it in perspective.

If we look at the average DPS of top parses, we're (as of this writing) at 26594 DPS, in 10th place, 4th among melee. A 5.2% boost puts us at 27977, which is... 10th place, 4th among melee.

Hmm.

In other words: while I'm certainly happy to get a DPS boost - we did need one - I think this only addresses the least of 3 problems currently afflicting rogues. The other 2:

1) In current content, ranged just sort of win. Pretty much every ranged class save shaman has a spec that's as good as (and, usually, better than) any melee spec, and while Blizzard has indicated that they're aware of the issue, its not clear from that response that they fully appreciate the scope of the problem and/or have good ideas for fixing it, which is... concerning. I admit I don't have a lot of good ideas either, but I do think its safe to say that many of the current rogue problems are more general melee problems than rogue-specific ones, so hopefully they come up with a solution sooner rather than later.

2) Our target switching sucks ball and our burst is nonexistent. Assassination only does good DPS when it has DP stacked up and rupture rolling, and that takes time. This makes us useless on any short-lived add and weak on any fight with frequent target swaps or interruptions. We also have minimal ability to produce a burst - our cooldowns are generally ineffective, and with so much of our damage from passive sources its hard to get a meaningful burst just out of pure ability/energy manipulation. This hurts us on Omnotron, Magmaw, Nef, Council, Cho'gall, and Conclave. Also note that the problem is not limited to our single-target DPS - our AoE has much the same problem. If you compare my damage on Swills and Aberrations on Maloriak this week, you'll note I'm totally respectable 6th on the (long-lived) Swills and a (nearly irrelevant) 12th on the bursty abominations. Same problem: we need 10 seconds to ramp up or so before our AoE does *anything*.

So: they fixed (or at least, improved) the damage problem, and they're at least looking at the ranged/melee issue. Now if they can just fix the target-swapping/burst problem, we might start to be in reasonable shape.

Antiarc · 05/26/11, 9:26 PM

How do you figure that Poison damage is only a third of a Mutilate rogue's damage? In our H Chim parse this week, our top Mut rogue's poison breakdown was:

Instant: 22.9%
Deadly: 12.4%
Envenom: 15.2%
Venomous Wound: 9.2%

For a total of 59.8% of his total damage. According to shadowcraft-engine, Vile Poisons affects Envenom/Venomous Wound, so I'm not sure why you're excluding them.

Edit: Nevermind, the engine is including Potent Poisons, the tree passive, not Vile; ignore the remaining part of the post, but left here to illustrate the mistake I (and likely others) made.

He did 8,715,499 damage, 5,206,923 of that being poison damage. 5206923 / 1.2 * 1.36 = 5,901,179, or a 694,256 damage increase, which is about +7.9% total damage for the encounter. Melee damage was 3,191,619 (excluding Rupture/Garrote), and 3191619 / 1.15 * 1.2 = 3330385, or and increase of 138,766 damage, which is an additional 1.59%. With those buffs, he would have seen a +9.49% overall damage increase, which is pretty substantial.

Edit again: That said, I agree with you that this doesn't fix rogue problems by a long shot, and nerfing our survivability is a little odd since rogues are already the second-lowest represented class in high-end PVP.

• Aldriana · 05/26/11, 9:34 PM

I'm not sure where in ShadowCraft-Engine you're seeing that Vile Poisons effects Envenom and Venomous Wounds. The relevant lines:

# In this function, vile_poisons is defaulted to false, so any function that 
# calls it must manually set vile_poisons=True in order for it to benefit from Vile Poisons.

    def talents_modifiers(self, opportunity=False, coup_de_grace=False,
                          executioner=False, aggression=False,
                          improved_sinister_strike=False, vile_poisons=False,
                          improved_ambush=False, potent_poisons=False,
                          assassins_resolve=True, mastery=None):

# Vile Poisons not included in args for envenom
    def envenom_damage(self, ap, cp, mastery=None):
        multiplier = self.talents_modifiers(coup_de_grace=True, executioner=True, assassins_resolve=True, potent_poisons=True, mastery=mastery)

# Likewise for Venomous Wounds
    def venomous_wounds_damage(self, ap, mastery=None):
        multiplier = self.talents_modifiers(potent_poisons=True, assassins_resolve=False, mastery=mastery)

So: in your example, 22.9 + 12.4 = 35.3 = about a third. In the parse I was using, 23.3 + 11.4 = 34.7 = also about a third.

orderofmaken · 05/26/11, 10:20 PM

While its nice to recieve a little attention and get a buff to both specs in PVE, I don't know about anyone else, but the buffs to combat at least don't seem overly impressed. I was kind of expecting a little more solid, mostly regarding the energy regen issue the spec seems to be having and at least I've experienced while playing the spec through this tier. Indefinitely when Adreneline Rush is popped hurting the most. Seems that they think by just buffing the attack power in small amounts it will fix the combat tree. From the last few patches anyway, where combat got attention.

nextormento · 05/26/11, 10:22 PM

Cofused about the ~8% you are getting at, I updated my fork in shadowcraft with the buffs and this is what I'm getting:

Spec	dps BiS T11 pre-buff	dps Bis T11 post-buff	percentage difference
Assassination	24862,61	26211,24	5,42
Combat	25690,62	26881,49	4,64
Subtlety	23821,62	25120,99	5,45

*See that the engine slightly underestimates assassination, but the percetage increase should be just about the same.
I'll try and put togheter a T12 gear setup later tomorrow.

Both Assassasin's Resolve and Vile Poisons stack additively with mastery and potent poisons so the impact, as Aldriana just said as I was writing this wall'o'text, is not as big. Also, Assassasins Resolve does not apply to poisons nor bleeds, only melee abilities (plus envenom).

I may add that some of the issues rogues face are traits of the class itself: It hasn't changed significantly play style wise since classic (bar some deep changes to mechanics like poisons and procs, but the style remains). With that in mind, rogues have been the no-swap/tunnel-vision class since like ever:

Assassination has never been a burst/aoe on demand spec (combat used to be) and everything we do away from the usual single target cycle needs some setup: we can do high aoe during green Maloriak if we stack poisons prior to the phase change (easily done since you need to stop dps on the main guy eventually) but that is merely a fancy trick and can only be pulled in that boss. Admitedly as assassination the target swap is not as punishing (envenom running stacks DP faster), but as far as I know, there is no other class actively punished by that (in fact, the new every-one-is-a-multidot-class fad is a testimony of this issue).

I believe the whole issue is related to the current philosophy behind the class: every ability that impacts heavily the performance is stacked on the target: vendetta, DP, bandit's guile, find weakness and combo points themselves. Admitedly we do carry the haste buff (SnD) with us and rupture is not needed on the current target. But see that most debuffs other classes use are actually dots (not utility abilities like the ones listed above), hence target swap is not only not punishing but actually it is rewarding (it ultimatelly is multidotting: corruption, stings, pw:pain, etc.); the buffs/debuffs other classes need are stacked on themselves: maelstrom weapon procs are merely combo-points on the player, holy power is about the same, disesases carry over with the press of a button *before the swap*, and so on.

All in all, the issues are deeply tied to what the class is designed like. Make no mistake, I like the concept of combo points stacked on the target, I simply think they've gone overboard with it.

• Aldriana · 05/26/11, 10:32 PM

One other observation I might make is that all the new damage we're getting doesn't scale with mastery, so the EP value of the stat will probably drop somewhat. Probably not enough to let haste catch up outright, but its plausible to me that by T12 or perhaps T13 we'll hit a tipping point where once you have "enough" mastery it becomes worth it to start balancing haste and mastery.

jtstormrage · 05/27/11, 3:54 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

One other observation I might make is that all the new damage we're getting doesn't scale with mastery, so the EP value of the stat will probably drop somewhat. Probably not enough to let haste catch up outright, but its plausible to me that by T12 or perhaps T13 we'll hit a tipping point where once you have "enough" mastery it becomes worth it to start balancing haste and mastery.

Please could you clarify this. Vile Poisons increases poison damage. Mastery increases poison damage. How do they not scale? Sorry if this is a question the answer to which strikes you as obvious.

sp00n · 05/27/11, 4:59 AM

As he stated, Mastery and Vile Poison stack additively, so the one side doesn't really care about the other.

(Assuming that they really do stack additively, I don't know from the top of my head, but I trust him enough to simply accept this.)

effyTW · 05/27/11, 7:28 AM

Mastery and Vile Poison do stack additively.
Haste will increase the buffed part of damage while mastery won't.
Also considering we would stack more mastery in T12, haste will come closer to mastery.

nextormento · 05/27/11, 9:50 AM

I'm plugging 4.2 gear into shadowcraft to get some very early EP and dps estimates. I'm using 4T12 with Demon Lord's Wing (H) and Cinderweb Leggings (H) off-sets for assassination and combat/subtlety respectively. I used Matrix Restabilizer and The Hungerer as trinkets. I used non heroic weapons by mistake but it should't change the EP by much. Gems and enchants go as usual; while reforging I simply reforged to hit/exp caps where needed and tried to get as much mastery or haste where appropiate.

Stat	Assassination T11	Assassination T12	Combat T11	Combat T12
Agi	2.6	2.69	2.7	2.77
Yellow hit	1.75	1.89	1.9	2.05
Spell hit	1.4	1.54	1.4	1.42
Mastery	1.3	1.41	1.2	1.34
Haste	1.2	1.31	1.5	1.59
Dodge exp	1.1	1.17	1.65	1.75
Crit	0.9	1.16	0.9	1.14
White hit	0.75	0.81	1.1	1.13

I put the pre buff EP for comparison. While the priority has not changed, it's notable that rating stats are now significantly more valuable due to the 4pT12 set. Haste and mastery are still well appart although they are closign the gap (percentage wise) but given the continuous (almost linear actually) nature of the stat-scaling I don't see haste creeping over anytime soon; we saw this happening during ICC with haste eventually overcomming AP but rating stats had a steeper slope than they do now. Edit: this has been revised and, while it holds some truth (under the tier set), it doesn't cover the whole picture; check shadowcraft's live version for the most up to date weighting.

About the dps estimates: I'm getting ~30050 for assassination and ~31700 for combat. Both figures would be higher if I were to use a reforge optimizer, but not having gear in the armory yet makes the whole process a bit tedious. Besides, I believe it's a bit too soon for it as we may see some changes to loot or new buffs/nerfs to the class.

Silverdirk · 05/27/11, 12:16 PM

It is very ironic that the two things rogues have been complaining about for years (namely burst and better target changing), were denied to the class because of the effects in the PvP environment (well that was their excuse). Initially, at the end of vanilla, when Mutilate was introduced, it did have great burst, because it relied so much more on weapon damage. Again Blizzard cut this back.

In 4.0 they completely changed how Retribution is played, by giving them 'combo points' which were retained personally, not on the target, and barely any ramp-up time to go with it, something again rogues have been asking for, for years. All of this for the sake of PvP. They still somehow managed to not give the mechanics for rogues under the same excuse. Now that rogues do not have the same stun-lock abilities in PvP maybe it is high time Blizzard revisited the burst PvE mechanics.

So yes as Aldriana has said, the DPS is only a very small part of the equation. There are no Brutallus-type fights anymore in the game, especially on HC mode. The class needs a mechanics overhaul, to allow for better burst and better ramp-up time on target switching.

Antiarc · 05/27/11, 12:46 PM

Warriors, Death Knights, and Retribution Paladins all switch targets more easily and burst far harder than rogues in PVP already. Ferals have a hard time because of their bleeds, and I don't know anything about Enhance shaman, but I really think that hand-wringing over rogues being able to target swap too easily is seriously misplaced. The biggest possible argument for not letting rogues do that is throwing a 5-point Kidney Shot on a healer then landing a kill on a DPS, but warriors and paladins already have the ability to do exactly that via Throwdown and Hammer of Justice respectively, and Death Knights get that via Hungering Cold, Strangulate, or the ghoul stun as well.

• Andeh · 05/27/11, 1:03 PM

How much of our perceived slow ramp-up time is due to restacking Deadly Poison, and how much of it is building enough CPs to get Rupture up? I'm assuming that in any boss-style target swapping we go into a swap with a relatively high duration SnD (we know swap is coming and are able to refresh just prior). If the Deadly restack time is longer, then our real problem is not combo points being on target but having to 5-stack Deadly.

My gut feeling is that it probably takes longer to restack Deadly. It has a base proc rate of 30% (50% for Mutilate), and we have offhand swings roughly every 1s. So it's going to take ~15s for Combat & Subtlety to stack DP & ~10s for Mutilate on average, just looking at white attacks. Combat will probably get a couple procs off MG in that time, and Mutilate will probably get a couple from Mutilate hits, but the above also discounted misses/dodges, so even optimistically it's more like ~12s/~8s. In comparison, Mutilate needs 3 GCDs (3s) to ramp up Rupture, and Combat theoretically doesn't NEED to use Rupture (Shadowcraft points to Rupture-less being ~140 dps / 0.56% for my gear).

So to me, it seems like the ramp-up problem lies more in Deadly Poison than Combo Points on target instead of self. Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer CPs on self as well. But I think a better fix to our ramp-up time would be to reduce the number of times DP can stack to 3 instead of 5 (while maintaining same max damage per tick and scaling intermediary damage per tick accordingly).

This of course ignores our lack of burst damage, which also is usually important in target swapping situations. However, it would also help out our (Mutilate) AOE ramp up time as well.