As a direct reply to Paper, perhaps this kind of thing should be in the first post of the same thread?
I used to do the same thing on our guild' forum: maintain links to pertinent discussions too so, at least some of us find it useful!
The reason I thought that a separate thread would be better is because there are going to be a handful of topics that apply to several or all of our specs and making sure they are a part of all the appropriate threads just seems a lot more difficult especially since I do not maintain the Subtlety thread. Further, while I realize they would only be an array of links, I really want to try and keep the guides to the point closer to the basic information and keep excess info out (no, I am not always sure that line should be so feel free to shoot suggestions).
I also thought that if it was decided to keep the thread unlocked, people would able to post suggested additions (or deletions). Though, I am concerned that a separate discussion could develop there and add yet another place for people to search for information.
I was coming back to comment on how horrible it is searching for something on here when you don't know "exactly" what you're searching for (and is often the reason why you're searching) but glad to see that Aldriana has covered that topic well.
I'm liking the idea of having the thread with links to the relevant bits of info (kind of a linked FAQ at a guess) but it would probably be a pig to maintain.
I still think a more open thread would be valuable, despite some of the well-reasoned objections so far. If, for example, I had played a Boomkin until now and was experienced with theorycrafting discussions, raiding and gearing, just not the familiarity with the class, I would flounder with the situation as it is (indeed I someties do when looking at other class forums on here). While the rogue forums in general have excellent "basics" first posts (which is a vast improvement on many of the other classes) for their respective specs, which give anyone a good jump-start, it can be very hard to find more specific stuff. However this is true of all of the EJ forums, not just the rogue ones.
Also using a more open thread to be able to discuss certain raid makeups and "How to get the best from what you have" rather than shouted down with a "Get a <insert class here>" would be awesome. Or to theme it more towards rogues - "We have this makeup, how can I best use my skills to offset any disadvantages?" type thing.
I'd say just adding a relaxed thread would be the easiest way to make things easier:
- Shouldn't require more moderation
- Get's more junk out of the main threads
- Valid concerns from players fearing a ban can be brought up without fears
- More help for those who are tad 'special'
And I personally always answer anything I already come across when I know the answer on it, but then again, I wouldn't go out of my way to find the question in the first place.
While the other options are good in theory, such as summarazing every topic we come across, it'll require too much moderation to maintain, so rather thin out the unneccessary things before it actually appears.
An alternative would be to maintain a thread (perhaps locked) that just lists links to these prolonged discussions and really valuable posts that answer questions very well. I used to keep a number of links to past discussions, lately I just do my best to remember key words and use the search function. A rough example would be the following. As a note, I grabbed these links really quickly, I am sure there are better links and I am not suggesting that we must implement any of these topics.
A new player would still have to know to come to this thread and look around and may be confused about if they should be looking in the FAQ, one of the guides, or here. Plus, if we end up with a ton of topics in here it could get really disorganized.
On a forum I moderate we use thread (meta) tags to solve this problem. I wonder if, given the nature of mega threads here (we are ...vigilant about splitting threads into topics, but we also have a much broader scope), it couldn't be applied at the post level.
Essentially, if an important post comes up relating specifically to a certain topic it gets tagged. Then rather than create these threads with links, you can just use a "Search for every post marked with this tag". You don't even need to tag every relevant post, just something that marks the beginning of the discussion would probably be enough. Maintaining threads like above can be tedious and they tend to go out of date.
I'm all for a "helping" thread. As mentioned by Ald, there are plenty of ambiguities, even in the "common knowledge" aspects of playing that can cause new (and old) people to come unstuck. Information here can be difficult to find. And sometimes teaching is the best way of learning yourself.
I apologize if I seem a bit rambly. It's late and I have a lovely headache caused from lack of meds.
Much of the problem with information here on EJ is that many of the main threads and first posts just aren't updated that often. As a mostly free site people come and go as they please which often leaves shoes that don't get filled. I believe it took at least a month or two for someone to step into Consider's shoes to address DK DPS for instance. Many people simply won't or can't put in the effort to maintain detailed guides. It's mostly a thankless job with little visible reward.
Having some sort of reward for excellence might bring more people up to creating TTT-level threads, but given the limited resources of this site that route would be difficult. Mimicking the DK forum where Tehax made a thread asking for proper guides might be somewhere to start for all classes and specs. The Warrior specs come to mind as benefiting greatly from a cohesive first post guide instead of "Hey, this is where we discuss Arms etc."
To address rogue forum specific issues, the Blue Post thread and 4.1 etc changes thread could be merged into one thread to discuss both patch changes and blue posts relating to those changes. Ideally the first post would be kept updated and relevant to current and upcoming content, but just merging them would suffice to reduce clutter and provide a place for collected information about official Blizzard announcements pertaining to Rogues. Patch notes are technically Blue Posts after all.
"Help me not suck" threads have seen some positives lately. They make for a dump of sorts for the trivial stuff so that the more in-depth discussion can happen elsewhere without much interruption.
Thaela brings up an excellent point about meta information tags. The full implementation would take a lot of work on these boards (if it's even possible). A stop-gap could be for truly important posts to have a title or heading with plain-as-day wording on what it's about so that it'll show up better in Searches. Rogue Mastery for instance could come up with posts stating what exactly Mastery does for Rogues of each spec and why the values are what they are. A little bit of work and mindfulness from posters can go a long way into making things easier for everyone.
Something possibly tying into the metadata thought: What does the Trackback box do beneath our posts?
I absolutely despise reading mmo-champion or official wow forums (though I do read them for various reasons at times) and it is precisely for that reason that I specifically enjoy reading and replying here at EJ. The whole expectation from the get-go is clarity, maturity, accuracy, and excellence, and to take that away in the hopes of appeasing a less-serious crowd of rogues seems exceptionally counter-productive. EJ is not the place you go to find out which finisher to use as assassination, or to find out why you're doing awful dps with a 2.6 speed weapon in your off-hand. If we open the forums up to *countless* questions of that nature, the people on the outside looking in (and I'm sure even a fair share of the regular posters) will lose a lot of respect for this place. In that vein, I would have a hard time answering questions of that nature in the name of EJ, where as when asked in another medium (PM, in-game, etc) I am always willing to spend as much time as is needed to help a fellow rogue. I just don't think it's appropriate for EJ as an entity to be that to the community. We have other (less mature, less accurate) forums for that.
As far as the thread management aspect, that seems largely clerical and trivial. I think the confusion there is simply that people don't see the blue post thread as a place to clutter with tons of discussion about the changes themselves, which is why we often end up with an actual discussion thread as well. I would just leave the blue thread as a reference material for people searching for a specific reference about the class, and then go with a targeted "discussion" thread if we get a reasonable round of changes in a given patch.
I would definatly support a thread for random questions without recieving infractions. Although information get's more and more accessible the longer this forum is alive with clear forum thread titles and such I also recieved some infractions when I first joined ElitistJerks, after that I was kinda 'scared' posting as rules are rather strict (Which is fine btw). Admitted the search function is there, yet sometimes it remains very hard finding the answer one seeks. With the uprising of threads like the Combat and Assasination Guide's it's way more easier to find the basic spec information then before, but yeh I would definatly support a thread where the rules are taken a bit lighter. It's not as if it's going to bother anyone who does not want to check it as it will be 1 thread only.
I for one wouldn't mind at all answering some basic questions in that forum from time to time. I sometimes forget that also I was a complete newbie at some point and had to ask the obvious questions at some point even after searching several forums and websites.
Bluethread #care, I always read em up over at mmo champ.
An alternative would be to maintain a thread (perhaps locked) that just lists links to these prolonged discussions and really valuable posts that answer questions very well.
Should I use Gouge in my Combat rotation?
This is actually something I had originally considered with the Raid Mechanics thread. What I initially envisioned was having a link to the relevant discussion of newly added tips at the end of each point, and to update it as people improved certain tips. I unfortunately never got around to implementing it in the 4.0 thread, but I think it holds a large amount of promise to showing what information is gut-work, and what has been extensively tested, as well as when.
I did eventually add one or two links to various in depth discussions, as well as copying the recommended macro's over to the OP, which I believe helped somewhat.
I could also see this implemented in the various Spec Discussion and FAQ's. As those try to be more concise sources of information, the points on certain decisions tend to be abstracts and reduced conclusions. Having links to the discussion of how that answer was obtained could be useful. This however entails a decent amount of work for whoever created the thread, and may discourage people from creating threads they would have to maintain for decent amounts of time. This is especially true for the Spec Discussions and FAQ's, which tend to be updated less frequently. I initially thought it would be feasible for the raid mechanics as that thread's OP was initially updated daily, and would by default need to be updated whenever new information was added anyways; adding a link as well as the info would have been a more automatic function.
Last edited by Zulkeir : 06/01/11 at 1:27 PM.
Reason: Truncating quote to consume less space; expanding certain missing explanations.
Hey , I am brand new to the game and EJ. I know that I am supposed to make several replies tho threads and didn't want to be one of the "help me help me" types. I have been currently trying to gather information on everything Rogue, and the site is vary helpful. I do find that there is a mass of information that you have to sort through just to find some of the info that pertains to my current interest or answer i need. I have looked at all the headings and see the general subject title to start my searches but it might be nice if sub headings were in use for each of the classes. I realize this might be a big undertaking in terms of programing or otherwise but it would also limit the necessity to have the hand holding discussion groups that would again probably be a mass of separate information that requires great amounts of searching to find again... This would also help in the search window as it would group threads of those same threads together for preview. That having been said, the plus side to searching all threads is random information that leads to more questions for me. Sometimes a great sometimes frustrating...
Again, haven't been here long but maybe new eyes sometimes see thing differently. Then again maybe they didn't see something obviously in front of them.