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Old 10/02/11, 1:32 PM   #101
 sp00n
banned
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
Originally Posted by Freitzehn View Post
maybe Spoon (or anyone) can make a few additions to the addon and have it track the percent of active time you spent with capped energy? It'd just have to track the total amount of seconds that you spent with 100/100 energy, and I imagine that if his addon can tell when you cap then it should be able to tell how long you've been capped for, right? This would be a really good/easy way to find the average value of 'a' for every fight. though I still don't know if there's any kind of reasonable way to find 'b'.
It already does that, sans the percentage calculation.
Sample output:
----------- ENERGY CAPPED REPORT -----------
<> Combat ended after 599.98 seconds.
<> You capped energy 16 times in the last fight!
<> The total duration was 53.39s.
<> You wasted ~684.72 energy during that time.
<> (~624.72 from Regeneration / 60 from Procs)
<> Your maximum energy regeneration rate was 23.88.
<> Your average energy regeneration rate was 12.56.
----------- ENERGY CAPPED REPORT -----------
Also it doesn't account for waiting time or phase transitions, so comparing different bosses is basically impossible.


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Old 10/02/11, 2:02 PM   #102
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by ABUSEDGOAT View Post
If there are no plans for a tool to implement haste capping in Shadowcraft, is it possible to at least see a breakdown of haste's EP value and how much of it is tied to energy regeneration?
I wouldn't say there are no plans to model haste capping in ShadowCraft; its just that its a hard problem and one that I don't have time to work on. Perhaps one of the other developers will get to it at some point; perhaps not. But we certainly acknowledge that it would be nice to have.

Regardless: I hacked a quick estimate, and it appears that for Combat, the benefits of haste are 50-55% from attack speed and 45-50% from direct increase of energy regen - i.e., fairly evenly split. It is, however, worth noting that the attack speed component gets at least part of its benefit from Combat Potency procs, and if you're capping that benefit is presumably reduced as well. So in practice, if you were completely hard-capped on Haste, the stat would probably drop to something like 40% of its current value.

In order for Haste to lose its crown as the go-to stat, it would need to lose enough value to get passed by Mastery. Pulling EP values from the FAQ, Mastery is 1.5 and Haste is 1.7, which breaks down as something like .7 from autoattacks and 1.0 from haste; thus, you'd need to be wasting about 20% of the incremental energy gains before Mastery catches up - and that neglects the fact that Mastery would also be reducing in value, as it, too, gets part of its value from Combat Potency procs - so the real number is probably larger than that. Also note that hit has the same general consideration - it, too, gets part of its benefit from increased energy regen via Combat Potency. So when you energy cap, *all* rating stats (save Crit) drop in value, and while Haste drops faster, it probably doesn't catch up to Mastery until you're losing about a quarter of the incremental energy gains to capping. I won't say that that can't happen, but I don't think most of us our their yet. Haste is probably the way to go for the moment.

Haste procs probably lose value a little faster, as you're more likely to cap during them than otherwise, but whether there's anything to be done about that is sort of at the mercy of itemization - even if energy capping does reduce the value of haste trinkets in the current tier, there aren't really any viable alternatives that don't proc haste, so...

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Old 10/03/11, 6:13 PM   #103
Naihan
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Bronzebeard
Depending on how the game formulates the energy cost of abilities, is there any chance that a glyphed feint could potentially give us 4 energy while we have the buff from our set-bonus tricks? If memory serves me correctly, it was possible to get negative armor on targets by going over the armor-pen cap in WotLK before Blizzard capped armor reduction at 100%.

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Old 10/03/11, 7:59 PM   #104
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
As a more relevant example: Sinister Strike with Lucifron's Curse cost 85 energy (45 * 2 - 5) back in the day, so yes, percentage modifiers tend to be applied before static reductions. So it is possible.

However, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they have the energy cost of moves set to a minimum of 0, so I don't think its in any way guaranteed.

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Old 10/03/11, 9:49 PM   #105
Pathal
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Worgen Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Except that the CD for Bestial Wrath for BM works by applying the [Glyph of Bestial Wrath] first, then applying the effect from Longevity. It may be an outlier in this scenario, but I'm sure it's not the only one.

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Old 10/11/11, 7:09 PM   #106
Leucifer
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Shu'halo
Originally Posted by Wrekk89 View Post
Seeing as they are buffing melee to compensate so that we don't fall behind in the new raid, it seems Blizzard is hinting that mechanics will not favor melee dps. I'm taking this to mean lower dps up time. Time will tell I suppose. But if that's the case, the bonus becomes a lot worse for Assassination.
If I remember correctly, Blizzard stated (blue post to follow) that they were buffing melee so that melee was not at a significant disadvantage compared to ranged. They were dealing with complaints that many encounters favored ranged so much that melee dps was being left out of groups. The increase to melee output is meant to bring melee more in line with the damage output of ranged.

Edit: Updated as promised.

Melee DPS

Overall, we think melee DPS in dungeons and raids is still too low. We think melee DPS is fine in PvP, and we think melee DPS is competitive against ranged specs against target dummies, but in actual encounters with all of their moving pieces, melee falls behind. To attempt to adjust for this imbalance, we have improved the benefit to attack power given by the various raid buffs (Blessing of Might et al.) to melee only. Hunter DPS is fine, or even high in 4.2, so we didn’t want this buff to extend to them, which is why the AP benefit is now 20% for melee attacks but still 10% for ranged attacks.
Source: Explanation of 4.3 Balance Changes, Part One - World of Warcraft

Seems more to me as they're finally accepting that raid mechanics never really "favored" melee dps to begin with.

Last edited by Leucifer : 10/11/11 at 9:38 PM.

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Old 10/13/11, 8:06 PM   #107
koaschten
In the rear with the gear!
 
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Worgen Rogue
 
Auchindoun (EU)
From MMO-C:
Tier 13
Item - Rogue T13 4P Bonus (Shadow Dance, Adrenaline Rush, and Vendetta) now increases the duration of Adrenaline Rush by 3 sec, up from 2 sec and the duration of Vendetta by 9 sec, up from 2 sec.
Combat
Ambidexterity now increases the damage of Throw, Deadly Throw, and Fan of Knive abilities instead of increasing the damage of thrown weapons.

How to get an Android Authenticator on your PC. (updated feb'11)

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Old 10/13/11, 9:05 PM   #108
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Seems to me that neither of those actually change anything; the announced T13 set bonuses were already 9 seconds for Vendetta and 3 for Adrenaline Rush, so I suspect that's just an internal fix bringing the PTR build up to what was already announced. And I can't think of anything the Ambidexterity change effects - so far as I know those are our only attacks that do damage with our throwing weapon.

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Old 10/14/11, 9:59 PM   #109
Xenden
Glass Joe
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Galakrond
With the new build, we can't FoK during Killing Spree anymore; don't know if this is an intentional change or not, but it is rather annoying.

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Old 10/14/11, 11:02 PM   #110
Crevan
Piston Honda
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Darksorrow (EU)
According to Wowhead, the weapons from the final Deathwing encounter will all have some sort of procs instead of combat ratings - for example Horrific Axe or Horrific Polearm. It's a bit strange, but it looks like the caster staff will also be of some interest to us, in that you'll want to be near someone who wields it.

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Old 10/15/11, 12:06 AM   #111
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Blizzard seems fond of going with more proc-based weapons in the last tier of an expansion - if you recall, they did something similar in ICC, with [Black Bruise], [Bryntroll, the Bone Arbiter], [Heartpierce], [Last Word], [Nibelung], [Trauma], and [Zod's Repeating Longbow].

What's interesting, comparing the new procs to those, is that the tuning seems all over the map. Given that weapon damage and base stats are close to triple what they were in ICC, you'd expect the procs to be around 3 times as powerful... but assuming comparable proc rates, most of them aren't. Bryntroll had an abnormally high proc rate to start with and did 2500 damage (and healing) per proc; Horrific Axe is barely twice that, and Horrific Gun and Horrific Sacrificial Knife aren't even that much. Horrific Mace's healing proc is less than twice the size of Trauma, and (for a 200k HP tank) the damage and healing gained from Horrific Deflecting Sword are similarly unimpressive.

On the other hand, look at Horrific Polearm, which, fully stacked, gives 5000 Agility. Even if it has a 2 minute ICD (which is longer than any other proc that I can remember), that's going to provide something like 600 average-case agility; and given that that proc is replacing ~600 rating stats, which are typically at best half as good as agility... that's a very powerful proc. And if the ICD is a more reasonable 75 seconds, or even one minute....

Long story short, these procs seem somewhat untuned at the moment, and there are a lot more straight damage procs than we saw in ICC. Hopefully this means there's more changes forthcoming, but we'll just have to wait and see.

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Old 10/15/11, 12:45 AM   #112
Chult86
Piston Honda
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Blizzard seems fond of going with more proc-based weapons in the last tier of an expansion - if you recall, they did something similar in ICC, with [Black Bruise], [Bryntroll, the Bone Arbiter], [Heartpierce], [Last Word], [Nibelung], [Trauma], and [Zod's Repeating Longbow].

What's interesting, comparing the new procs to those, is that the tuning seems all over the map. Given that weapon damage and base stats are close to triple what they were in ICC, you'd expect the procs to be around 3 times as powerful... but assuming comparable proc rates, most of them aren't. Bryntroll had an abnormally high proc rate to start with and did 2500 damage (and healing) per proc; Horrific Axe is barely twice that, and Horrific Gun and Horrific Sacrificial Knife aren't even that much. Horrific Mace's healing proc is less than twice the size of Trauma, and (for a 200k HP tank) the damage and healing gained from Horrific Deflecting Sword are similarly unimpressive.

On the other hand, look at Horrific Polearm, which, fully stacked, gives 5000 Agility. Even if it has a 2 minute ICD (which is longer than any other proc that I can remember), that's going to provide something like 600 average-case agility; and given that that proc is replacing ~600 rating stats, which are typically at best half as good as agility... that's a very powerful proc. And if the ICD is a more reasonable 75 seconds, or even one minute....

Long story short, these procs seem somewhat untuned at the moment, and there are a lot more straight damage procs than we saw in ICC. Hopefully this means there's more changes forthcoming, but we'll just have to wait and see.
As rogues though, we can basically ignore most weapons, as those of us getting the first set of Legendaries will most likely be using the upgraded parts of the daggers the same way that casters used the 391 version of the staff because it was so well itemized.

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Old 10/15/11, 1:35 AM   #113
MikeJ714
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Windrunner
Problem is, how are we gonna pay off the Mages to give us haste buff? That's a bad mechanic - I don't imagine them keeping something like that.

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Old 10/15/11, 3:02 AM   #114
Ferrik
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Korgath
Originally Posted by MikeJ714 View Post
Problem is, how are we gonna pay off the Mages to give us haste buff? That's a bad mechanic - I don't imagine them keeping something like that.
Sadly though it doesn't seem like the buff will be very viable for anyone in the first place. A few casters are heavily reliant on the hit from their weapons, granted they don't have a legendary staff, which I highly doubt will be replaced this expansion.
Secondly most of the boss mechanics have been tuned to be spec dependent i.e. Majordomo's leaps, Wrath of Ragnaros, etc. so adding in a ranged class to the melee would probably hinder more than it would help.

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Old 10/18/11, 1:15 PM   #115
Tinwhisker
Bald Bull
 
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Dwarf Rogue
 
Scarlet Crusade
The "Mortal Strike" debuff is up to 25% on the PTR now (Wound Poison and Furious Attacks are included of course).


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Old 10/18/11, 4:31 PM   #116
Nytmare
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Mug'thol

Stage 1 Daggers as they are now on the PTR, subject to change before live obviously. Just posting for you theory-crafting type

Last edited by Nytmare : 10/18/11 at 4:37 PM.

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Old 10/20/11, 2:15 AM   #117
Artoxia
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Frostwolf (EU)
Yea, Killers from vodka did the legendary quest line. Seems you'll have to spend 10.000 gold at one of those quests.

Aren't there any other stats (like crit, hit, haste)?

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Old 10/20/11, 2:21 AM   #118
Pathal
Piston Honda
 
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Worgen Rogue
 
Doomhammer
None at the moment, but it's likely that those daggers will be changed in a later patch. I'm working to find the stats on the stage 2 daggers (in addition to the end of the chain) right now, unfortunately I'm not having much luck.

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Old 10/20/11, 5:31 AM   #119
Enzo90910
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Temple Noir (EU)
I don't know if we want a thread on EJ dedicated to the legendary questline, so I'll post this one i found on wowhead which already has lots of information.

EDIT: said thread is by previous poster Pathal, due credit where it's due. AND linked in his sig, so if I could delete my post I would :-)

Last edited by Enzo90910 : 10/20/11 at 5:54 AM.

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Old 10/20/11, 10:19 AM   #120
Foxtail
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Grim Batol (EU)
Originally Posted by Artoxia View Post
Yea, Killers from vodka did the legendary quest line. Seems you'll have to spend 10.000 gold at one of those quests.

Aren't there any other stats (like crit, hit, haste)?


Most likely it will have, otherwise they would fall very much on value even comparing to lower tier weapons. I doubt these lower versions will have any procc-based stats since those are most likely going for the legendaries I guess we'll just have to wait for Blizzcon and wait to see what kind of surprises they hold on for Rogue and these daggers.

Last edited by Foxtail : 10/20/11 at 10:29 AM.

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Old 10/20/11, 11:11 AM   #121
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Its worth noting that unlike Dragonwrath, where the first stage requires you to pick up drops for a couple of weeks in Firelands, and thus was bestowed on one member of a (25 man) raiding guild every couple of weeks, the current first-stage daggers will be obtained by every rogue in the guild as soon as you hit 3/8 (and you can buy an instance from a guild that's cleared that much if yours isn't up to it). Hence, the stage 1 daggers will be extremely common by comparison, so it would sort of make sense if they're not as obviously good in that stage; it sort of seems like you should have to do more than pay 10k gold and complete a few quests to get weapons that are an obvious upgrade for all players. So the lack of stats may actually be intentional. It might not be, of course; who knows what Blizzard's overall intent is here - but I wouldn't assume that its *necessarily* the case that the daggers are intended to be worth using.

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Old 10/20/11, 11:20 AM   #122
Brotherbear
Piston Honda
 
Orc Rogue
 
Frostwolf
I agree with what you're saying, but at the same time I'm wondering if combat rogues won't be in a position where they completely ignore the legendary until the final phase if they aren't a decent option from the get go. Which seems like it wouldn't really be ideal from a design perspective, especially if combat ends up being *the* dominant spec for end of expansion like it was during Wrath/TBC.

Unless Blizz's plan is to have the base daggers have the proc (thus making them somewhat attractive for combat rogues) and then adding stats to them as you upgrade them.

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Old 10/20/11, 11:57 AM   #123
StoicRoivaS
Piston Honda
 
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Blood Elf Rogue
 
Dunemaul
Originally Posted by Brotherbear View Post
I agree with what you're saying, but at the same time I'm wondering if combat rogues won't be in a position where they completely ignore the legendary until the final phase if they aren't a decent option from the get go. Which seems like it wouldn't really be ideal from a design perspective, especially if combat ends up being *the* dominant spec for end of expansion like it was during Wrath/TBC.

Unless Blizz's plan is to have the base daggers have the proc (thus making them somewhat attractive for combat rogues) and then adding stats to them as you upgrade them.
To be clear, it's not the proc that is going to make or break these for combat, it's the fact that these either will or will not be normalized to a slower weapon speed when you sinister strike with them. I haven't heard one way or the other yet, but regardless of the absence / presence of secondary stats and/or the legendary proc, these will obviously be entirely unusable to combat if only the final version is tuned to play nicely with sinister strike.

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Old 10/20/11, 12:01 PM   #124
telethar
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Firetree
As far as I can tell the daggers are intended to have no stats. The quest immediately after you get them is Cluster Clutch
The daggers I have given you are lifeless shells. They can do great things, once they are given a means to contain the power I have in mind.
These aren't meant to be used, so it is no surprise they have no stats and don't work with combat. The only thing I found funny was that they had gem slots at all.

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Old 10/20/11, 12:01 PM   #125
Pathal
Piston Honda
 
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Worgen Rogue
 
Doomhammer
I want to defend my statement a little.

As it stands, the pockets of Hagara refill with each reset / every 15 minutes like pockets normally do for NPCs. This doesn't actually seem intentional to me. Furthermore I have seen some people say that they couldn't pick pocket Hagara during the 10man session, I'm more inclined to not change that stance however, since I haven't seen any evidence to refute it. The issue with this is, as Aldriana said, is that you can sell the daggers to any Rogue competent enough to kill Creed on their own. I would hope that they do something so that the pockets don't refill so easily in the future.

Additionally, there's quite a few people who dislike the 12 hour charge period on A Hidden Message. I, along with many others, hope that it changes, and replacing this with something that requires raid activity would definitely reduce people selling the daggers.

I also don't think that they would put the proc on the base form of the dagger. Not only would that be the first time they did that for a legendary, but because it reduces the climactic value of getting the final stages of the daggers. I just don't see why they would when they can put static stats on them instead. I'm not sure if they will add whatever damage modifiers for Sinister Strike (and Revealing Strike?) on the stage 1 and stage 2 components. Combat will still have access to Enhance weapons, even if Enhance Shaman don't like it.

So while, yes, in the current incarnation the first half of the quest line is very easy for any Rogue to get through, I hope that it will be improved upon before release. Improving the above issues would help to fix the concern of people selling stage 1.

EDIT: So that it's not a double post. The legendary proc is on the PTR. Fangs of the Father - Item Set - World of Warcraft

Your melee attacks have a chance to grant Shadows of the Destroyer, increasing your Agility by 17, stacking up to 50 times. Once you have acquired 30 stacks of Shadows of the Destoyer, each stack gained grants an increasing chance to trigger Fury of the Destroyer and cancel all stacks of Shadows of the Destroyer. Fury of the Destroyer immediately grants 5 combo points and causes your finishing moves to grant 5 combo points. Lasts 6 sec.
I'll be adding more data as I go to the collection of info. They've added more stats/a proc to the base form of the daggers too, apparently. While not what I expected, the base form of the daggers has a weakened form of the final proc. Seems like it would still be weaker than an i397 would be otherwise, but who knows. It's added stats at least.

Last edited by Pathal : 10/26/11 at 1:23 AM.

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