Mists of Pandaria: All Specs - Page 10

Seliathan · 03/17/12, 8:24 AM

In the current and the two recent raid tiers, using Recup was somewhat effective occasionally since one could spec into improved Recup without any damage loss whatsoever. For certain encounters with abilities that hit really hard, e.g. Nefarians' Electrocute, Ragnaros' Trap or Ultraxions' Hour, getting that 6% damage reduction in addition to Feint made sure you'd survive even without heroic gear levels.

For the future of Recup, one has to speculate about how encounters are going to turn out in MoP, which nobody can. From a pure damage perspective however, Recup won't see any action because of the aforementioned Energetic Recovery Change. A shame really, since it streamlines the Subtlety rotation, which I happened to love extensively due to its complexity compared to combat and mutilate.

kindath · 03/22/12, 1:19 AM

Glyphs so far from WoWDB

Glyph of Blade Flurry - Your attacks have a 30% higher chance of applying Non-Lethal poisons while Blade Flurry is active.
Glyph of Expose Armor - Your Expose Armor ability causes three applications of Weakened Armor. (note that expose is now a combo builder, this lets you stack sunderx3 with one application)
Glyph of Debilitation - Your Eviscerate and Envenom abilities also reduce the target's movement speed by 50% for 6 sec.
Glyph of Feint - Increases the duration of Feint by 2 sec.
Glyph of Killing Spree - Your Killing Spree returns you to your starting location when the effect ends.
Glyph of Recuperate - Increases the healing of your Recuperate ability by an additional 0.5% of your maximum health.
Glyph of Revealing Strike - Increases Revealing Strike's bonus effectiveness to your finishing moves by an additional 10%
Glyph of Sinister Strike - Your Sinister Strike deals 25% more damage and costs 25% more Energy.
Glyph of Smoke Bomb - Increases the duration of your Smoke Bomb by 2 sec.
Glyph of Shadow Walk - Your Shadow Walk ability also increases your stealth detection while active.
Glyph of Tricks of the Trade - Your Tricks of the Trade ability no longer costs Energy, but also no longer increases the damage dealt by the target. (useless.)
Glyph of Vendetta - Reduces the damage bonus of your Vendetta ability by 5% but increases its duration by 10 sec.

The rest I saw are unchanged from live, though I should check if there's any that have been removed.

Chult86 · 03/22/12, 4:24 AM

Originally Posted by kindath

Glyph of Feint - Increases the duration of Feint by 2 sec.

I believe a moment of silence is in order for the best glyph ever, the old Feint glyph.

Also, most of these glyphs seem to be going more of the way of talents, none are very useful for damage at all anymore, and are all more just entirely situational. The Tricks glyph makes it a Misdirection ability, and if MOP is anything like Cata, we'll be swapping targets too often to be able to take advantage of an extra 10secs of Vendetta.

bural · 03/22/12, 5:26 AM

Some very odd trade-offs they're introducing with those glyphs. Blade Flurry and Glyph of Blade Flurry trades yellow damage and procs through yellow hits for more auto attack procs. Glyph of Sinister Strike lets you mitigate energy capping issues at the cost of procs (Poisons, MG, BG, RB) from 25% more Sinister Strikes. I'd be surprised if it didn't turn out to be a noticeable dps decrease. Energy capping aside, it will take you 25% more time to get to Deep Insight thus cutting its uptime by up to 25%.
Additionally, unless they're integrating the current effect into something else, I assume it'd bring back a very TBC-esque rotation with a fixed rotation including a Revealing Strike for every finisher. Can't say it sounds particularly appealing.

Shadow Walk reintroducing Perception seems like going back down the path of rogue versus rogue talents. That meta game has been tried already and discarded for good and still valid reasons. In rogue versus rogue encounters it's a requirement. It makes rogue versus hunters+ferals openers more trivial and it's useless for all other opponents.

As for Glyph of Killing Spree I must admit I'm in two minds about having a glyph that adresses an aspect of an ability that is inherently bad. Sure, it's a nice effect but why is the ability counter productive in the first place.

I realise everything is a work in progress and the overarching theme of the new glyphs is sort of gimmicky, but the rogue glyphs seem ill-conceived at best. Options for convenience glyphs could include removing the gcd on Redirect similarly to Glyph of Beacon of Light, shorter cooldown & shorter duration Vendetta, shorter cooldown & less potent AR.

jehosephat · 03/22/12, 5:39 AM

Bural, with the RvS change coupled with the tier 90 talent, I would say it is extremely likely we will see RvS used not only in every finisher, but at the beginning of each instead of at the end. Secondly, the slight increase to the duration only reinforces the belief that slower SS might be what they are pushing.

Assuming the debuff is expended when the finisher is used...

Also, a question then, are they increasing the duration of the 30% bandits guile due to a slower rotation, or is that an assumed trade off for the increased damage...

Rosvall · 03/22/12, 7:17 AM

To be honest, these glyphs are quite lackluster and boring.

Seems they are trying to streamline the specs making them less RNG (Well in their minds, for us rogues it just means more static 'boring' rotations that lowers the skill cap).

It also seems like they want to reduce the ability for us to keep our dps while taking less damage than other classes, something that made us pretty valuable. Now it's a trade off, damage vs survivability/utility.

I guess we'll have to wait and see. But I for one would not want less complexity (And thus lower skill caps) when dps'ing, but that might just be me.

Probaton · 03/22/12, 7:26 AM

Unless we really start swimming in energy the SS glyph seems remarkably pointless are you're trading less combo points for the same amount of damage per second.

Brotherbear · 03/22/12, 4:14 PM

Looking over the glyph design so far, it seems that Blizz is pushing us towards having our glyphs vary based on encounter design (much like they think we should do with the new talents).

Looking at Dragon Soul (and ignoring that old saying about generals always fighting the last war) glyphing SS would make sense for:

Yorshaj: Burning oozes on both normal and heroic
Warlord: On heroic cleaning up the adds on black phase is pretty critical to raid success
Hagara: Killing ice pillars, tombs, and dps on the boss during the stun buff
Blackhorn: Phase 1 adds and sappers
Spine: Burning tendons as combat
Madness: Again, certain adds are pretty crucial

Now you could argue about circumstances for most of those fights, but the fact remains that (at least during progression wipes) focused dps in bursts can be dramatically more valuable than sustained dps depending on the encounter design.

Heck it's not even all that bad on Ultraxion. On an average 5 minute fight you'll get to use AR about 4 times. Ignoring set bonuses and current glyphs, that's 60 seconds of uptime. Add in another 40 seconds for bloodlust and you have 100seconds where energy is currently meaningless and the glyph amounts to free damage.

So for 1/3 of the fight, you do 25% more SS damage. So the question then becomes what the dps loss of the glyph is for 66% of the fight, compared to the gain for 33%.

So yes, it's probably a dps loss in MoP to use the glyph on Patchwerk. However any time you are changing targets/pooling energy/bursting a specific target it could end up being very valuable indeed even if it's not strictly speaking a dps gain to use it.

Which I like as a design concept.

As to the Blade Flurry glyph, well it makes me nervous in the same way that making BF a toggle made me nervous, in that it looks like it could very easily be overpowered and "mandatory" for progression.

Consider Leeching Poison. Right now it's a 50% application chance with an unknown duration, during which all of your hits heal you for 10% of the damage dealt. In the current incarnation of this glyph, you toggle on BF to pump up the application chance to either 80% (if it's additive) or 65% (if multiplicative) and then toggle it off immediately after the debuff appears on the target.

Then you simply toggle it on as needed to maintain the poison/healing. Admittedly LP currently has a 50% application rate per attack, so the odds are you don't need the BF buff to put it up consistently, but for healing check fights it will certainly be worth the 1sec of reduced energy regen it costs you.

And that's without looking at Paralytic Poison in PvE (sappers) or PvP.

Also, I'm curious as to the interaction between Blade Flurry and our new non-lethal poisons. Specifically if you can "double dip" Leeching Poison by cleaving. I spend a decent amount of H-Zon'ozz cleaving off the boss onto claws to the tune of about 3.5m damage (so 350k hp in self-healing) during the phase when I take the most damage. That's not an insignificant advantage for combat to have.

kindath · 03/24/12, 12:15 PM

More on glyphs:
There are only two categories, Major and Minor. 3 of each. Most of the prime glyphs have been rolled into their abilities. On other classes, vanity glyphs are under minor glyphs, but rogues don't seem to have any yet.

The minor glyphs are:
Blurred speed,
Distract,
Killing spree,
Pick Lock,
Pick Pocket,
Poisons,
Safe fall,
and Tricks of the trade.
All others are majors.

Also worth noting, feint doesn't reduce aggro anymore, but it doesn't require a target. You can stand in the middle of nowhere and feint for the buff.

Also, instant poison seems to have been removed entirely. The lethal poisons are deadly poison for pve and wound poison for pvp.

Bastage · 03/24/12, 10:08 PM

To give a bit more info about poisons, it looks like you won't need to keep stacks of poisons in your bags anymore theres a simple new poisons ui that allows you to select which poison to use on your weapon.

Sleete · 03/25/12, 5:22 AM

The new poison ui menu is like the mage teleport/portal where it pops out for you to choose one. The new wound poison uses the same icon as the current Instant Poison. The current wound poison doesn't have any green use text, so whatever you have of that left will probably become vendor trash.

The tool tip for feint says 7 seconds, only correct if you're glyphed for it. Feint doesn't have a cool down, so no more dead rogue b/c you popped feint on ultra to mitigate the aoe dmg without checking timers and eating hour of twilight, so I think that the feint glyph will still be manditory. The feint talent gives a 30% dmg reduction to direct attacks too, so can hit that every 5s or 7s (glyphed). I'm not sure how the aoe dmg reduction stacks with the 30%, I'll have to test it one of these days.

The Expose Armor glyph is like a druid's talent Feral Aggression for faerie fire where you hit it once and you don't need to reapply EA for the next 30 seconds, unless someone else applies it for you.

It seems like I'm gaining stacks of shadows of the destroyer much faster in beta than on live, it procs wings about once every 30 seconds in assassin spec.

There is no glyph of RvS available to be used on beta right now. IDK where that wowdb gets their information from.

Editing for clarity (half asleep): BF on a 2nd target won't apply LP on that target. That is how BF works on Live too, BF does NOT apply poisons to cleaved targets. I'm pretty sure if you keep up LP on both targets by target switching, you'll only get hp from one target. Doing this will drastically lower your dps b/c of reseting swing timers, and not letting guile build up. LP's text: "Weapon strikes against the poisoned target will heal you for 10% of damage delt" So the BF glyph won't do anything to increase HP you get back with LP. Glyph of BF seems to be of benefit only to paralytic poison ("Stacks up to 5 times on a single target, and upon a 5th application, enemy will be stunned for 4s.")

Rosvall · 03/25/12, 5:31 AM

Originally Posted by Sleete

The feint talent gives a 30% dmg reduction to direct attacks too, so can hit that every 5s or 7s (glyphed) and you'll have much.

That's actually very nifty. So you're saying that the glyph of feint actually increases the effect from the talent as well?

Sleete · 03/25/12, 5:36 AM

Originally Posted by Rosvall

That's actually very nifty. So you're saying that the glyph of feint actually increases the effect from the talent as well?

yes, the glyph increases the duration of feint (talented or untalented) from 5 seconds to 7 seconds. the tooltip for it seems to be incorrect, should say 5 seconds when you're NOT glyphed.

Edited with numbers and the numbers: Tooltip for the feint buff says 30% damage reduced and under it says 50% aoe damage reduced, when you're talented for it. so does that mean 80% total aoe dmg reduced? or 65% (100 *.5 = 50, 50 * .3 = 15, 50+15=65 ). Or is direct and aoe dmg considered to be two different types of damage and only give total of 50% max damage reduction when talented (doubtful but haven't tried it).

If untalented, it only says 50% aoe dmg reduced.

kindath · 03/25/12, 10:38 AM

Leeching poison is REALLY good. It doesn't proc healing off poison damage, but it does proc off both white and yellow physical attacks. (Edit: Not bleeds, though. Direct physical damage.)

There have been a couple changes to subtlety...
Hemo glyph has been rolled into hemo, but only applies the hemo bleed on targets that are already bleeding.
Serrated blades seems to have disappeared.
Sanguinary vein damage increase is up to 20%.

I really dislike the hemo change. In a 10m without another bleed, like mine, I'll have to blow vanish or shadow dance for garrote to just get a starting bleed on a new mob, or try to throw a rupture up as soon as possible. It'd be perfectly fine with a warrior/feral bleeding, but I hate relying on another player for my DPS.

Pathal · 03/25/12, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Sleete

Edited with numbers: Tooltip for the feint buff says 30% damage reduced and under it says 50% aoe damage reduced, when you're talented for it. so does that mean 80% total aoe dmg reduced? or 85% (100 *.5 = 50 * .3 = 15). Or is direct and aoe dmg considered to be two different types of damage and only give total of 50% max damage reduction when talented (doubtful but haven't tried it).

Assuming it works like every other multiplicative damage reduction, those two modifiers should equal out to be a 1-(1-.5)(1-.3)=.65, or 65% damage reduction.

Did they nix the passive crit boosts on things like Backstab and Mutilate?