According to the official talent calculator, Serrated Blades is supposed to be a trained Subtlety ability. Is this really not the case? Because if it's really gone, that would essentially counter removal of Recup from Sub's rotation.

Also, regarding the change to the SS glyph, it seems to me that since the real problem is energy capping during AR, and the AR glyph is a pretty boring glyph as-is. Based on this, it would make more sense to me for the AR glyph to be the one getting that effect ("While under the effects of Adrenaline Rush, the cost & damage of Sinister Strike are increased by 25%"), while leaving the SS glyph unchanged. That would make it a desirable effect all the time, rather than something that could be situationally bad. It could also be increased to something like 35% if energy capping was still a problem, and not have huge negative consequences outside of AR.

With the changed hit/parry/dodge caps, what's the situation with dual-wield penalty? Is it still 19% above yellow hit cap, or is it changed in any way?

So.. if you reach dodge expertise cap, you'll also reach the parry expertise cap, and thus can position yourself in front of a generic boss without any negative effects?

Not quite.
So if go with the 7.5% number GC had listed, at 7.5% hit and 7.5% expertise, you'll have no miss chance (7.5%-7.5%), no dodge chance (7.5%-7.5%), and no spell miss chance (15%-7.5%-7.5%). But the boss will still have his full chance to parry and block.

While you are correct about lowering dps due to swing timer reset, do note that Bandit's Guile now stacks on the rogue independent of target switching (this change and the KS glyph are absolutely massive quality of life improvements for Combat rogues in MoP).

This may be bad datamining but it would be a big change if true.
Cut to the Chase - Spells - WOWDB
Your Eviscerate refreshes your Slice and Dice duration to its 5 combo point maximum.

No mention of envenom.

Envenom still works on beta servers right now, so either its a forthcoming change or a data mining glitch. I suspect the latter.

I think it is legitimately too early to call on where they want rogue damage to be. We have been told time and time again that as pure dps we are intended to edge out non-pures single target by some small percent, and we have been told more recently that melee needs to have some advantage over range because of the modern method of designing most fights to not involve stand-and-punch.

Meanwhile, it is historically true that rogues have gone into expansions undertuned- the first major patch of every expansion has been wall to wall rogue buffs. If you will recall the terrible performance we had in 4.0 back in ICC gear, and the subsequent doubling of bandit's guile, increase in passive bonuses across all specs, and increase in talent value across all specs that followed during T11 (along with many other buffs and nerfs to other classes), you'll see that even at launch, large changes may follow.

This is NOT to say that rogues will be receiving large buffs- simply that large CHANGES will be made to all classes between now and the end of beta, and then between 5.0 and MoP launch, and then again in response to early MoP raiding, and if rogues are performing less than desired (as has been the case in other expacs) they will be buffed, and if they are overperforming, or performing well only because of a glitch (see, early 3.0!), then we will be nerfed or the trick fixed.


Monks are a hybrid class, with trees that mirror paladins. We have no reason to suspect that Windwalker will be more damage than all three of our specs, for instance, except based on what we are seeing very early.


Anyway, as for why I stopped in here!
mmo-c posted some data mined notes today that seem to have changed Wound poison into Instant poison- in other words, with wound being a "lethal" poison, we would seem to have the following changes going on:
1- PvP will mostly rely on running Wound and utility poison- for instance, Wound and Cripple.
2- Assassination will not be able to run Wound and still press envenom. This probably means that assassination can safely be assumed to not bring the moral effect any longer.
3- The bit about shivving 25% wound up to 50% wound is probably gone, as shiv only enhances utility poisons. I was really looking forward to shivving wound when an opponent dropped low.
4- It is likely that no rogue will bring Wound to pve content at all, as it would result in the loss of deadly poison.

Maybe this change just strikes me as more profound than it really is, but I think this is pretty interesting.
Edits (2): Thanks Docrev, it sounds like Envenom has lost deadly reliance completely!

Also note in the more recent changes, sub rogues have a LOT of damage wrapped up in bleeding targets- we gain a 20% bonus when attacking a bleeding target, up from 16% on live, but hemo no longer applies a bleed- in fact, the hemo "bleed" is now some kind of physical non-bleed dot, and this likely makes rupture the #1 super important thing to keep active, likely on target swap if nothing like rake is going on. Since monks (all monks) can wipe all bleeds every 8 seconds, it likely makes sub a rather strange spec for pvp, with heavy investment in a bleed that turns on a good chunk of our damage (likely nearly a quarter?), and is wiped with a short cooldown.

You're right, can't shiv on the new IP.

Like I said a page ago:
Just stop saying wound poison. It won't be in the game, unless they change it. They basically merged DP and IP together, and added the 25% healing debuff to IP for 15 seconds (what it is now on beta).

PVP will probably run either paralytic poison or leeching poison. You have Glyph of Debilitation (eviscrate/envenom slows by 50% for 6s) or deadly brew talent so it is a bit of a waste to use crippling poison.

LOL, most raid groups already have the spriest with improved mind blast applying the 25% healing debuff. A warrior can as well.

If you think bleeds being wiped out for sub is bad, think about feral druids. Rogues used to have HfB which would wipe bleeds as well. Anyways, sub spec feels like it is in flux on beta right now.

In assassin spec, envenom takes place of eviscerate. /cast eviscerate in assassin spec with a few CP up, you'll gain the envenom buff. So its a blizzard typo and new "feature", you can use the same macro for both specs as your finisher.

I haven't seen how it's working in the beta yet, but in all the datamined versions as well as the talent calculator, this is no longer the case:

Envenom: Finishing move that deals instant poison damage proportional to the number of combo points on the target. Following the Envenom attack, your poison application chance is increased by 15%, for 1 sec plus an additional 1 sec per combo point.

From the wording, it doesn't even require a poisoned target.

This, at least in the current build on EU servers, is wrong. Hemo applies a debuff when another bleed is active on the target, regardless of whether it was applied by you or someone else in your group (verified with the rupture of another rogue and a druid rip/rake). You can also refresh this hemo debuff with your own hemo debuff still active on the target, meaning you can 'roll' it without having rupture up at all, but we will miss out on the last tick of the debuff.

The most important part is that this hemo debuff also counts as a bleed, thus increasing your damage by 20% as long as it is active. As it currently is, with Serrated Blades not available or even trainable, this might put rupture in jeopardy since its DPE might drop below eviscerate which still profits from Find Weakness and other armor reduction effects.



For PvP, Sub is somewhat crippled offensively and buffed defensively. Since Paralytic Poison is quite strong and reminds me of our beloved mace-stun in TBC, this will almost certainly picked up in certain setups for arena. That way, we miss out on crippling poison though, and with a 6 second duration on Debillitation, and the need to roll SnD and probably even Recup in arenas, we don't have a proper perma-slow anymore. The only other choice would be to run either Mindnumbing or Leeching Poison (the latter won't provide much heal in PvP) and spec into Deadly Brew. And even then, we only have 50% slow on Crippling Poison now, and since we can't shiv it up to 70% without it actually being applied to the weapons, we miss out on alot of advantages we're having right now. Debillitation can't make up for that with its short duration and the need to roll 1 or 2 selfbuffs, plus there is a ton of other useful glyphs out there that sit on the same slot. Since feint doesn't require a target at all and elusiveness scales with the glyph, plus it comes without a cooldown, this is a spammable shieldwall now. Other important glyphs are blind, garrote and smokebomb, so debillitation is something one really has to think about using.

Also, weapon swapping to different weapons with different poisons is gone now that we have poisons applied as buffs, which really pisses me off. On the other hand we can change poisons midgame since glyphed it only takes 1.5seconds and it doesn't break stealth.