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Old 03/29/12, 5:57 PM   #181
PikaPika1006
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Pandaren Rogue
 
Illidan
It'd be pretty simple to make imp sprint baseline and remove vanish from prep.

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Old 03/29/12, 8:56 PM   #182
Tereskal
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Shattered Hand
When taking the Subterfuge talent from the first tier, does being in stealth for 3 seconds after the initial strike allow you to use stealth based abilities? I ask because garrote>rupture>ambush>SnD followed by Killing Spree seems like an optimum Combat opener, especially if using two slow weapons. The energy issue here is resolved by reforging into haste to improve weapon speed, which gives the benefit of increased energy regeneration.

My apologies if this has been raised and I missed it.

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Old 03/29/12, 9:08 PM   #183
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Its not clear that either Garrote or Ambush is significantly more energy-efficient than Sinister Strike. I mean, they *might* be, but its in no way obvious to me that that opener will be significantly better than opening RvS->SS->Whatever. And in particular, its in no way obvious that its *enough* better to be worth taking Subterfuge over Shadow Focus for a free extra Sinister Strike.

Of course, really, I'd like to see both those talents (or at least, Shadow Focus at minimum) removed entirely, because vanish as a DPS cooldown is generally a bad idea; but that's a story for another time.

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Old 03/30/12, 3:00 AM   #184
Sleete
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Stormscale
Originally Posted by Tereskal View Post
When taking the Subterfuge talent from the first tier, does being in stealth for 3 seconds after the initial strike allow you to use stealth based abilities? I ask because garrote>rupture>ambush>SnD followed by Killing Spree seems like an optimum Combat opener, especially if using two slow weapons. The energy issue here is resolved by reforging into haste to improve weapon speed, which gives the benefit of increased energy regeneration.
Yes, Subterfuge does allow you to keep using abilities that you can only use in stealth.
This allows for a sub/assassin rogue to garrote -> ambush -> ambush assuming you have enough energy to do this. You can only get in max of 4 gcds before the Subterfuge buff (it appears when you go into combat and buff counter starts at 2 seconds) fades with 4 cheap shots in assassin spec.

I doubt it is effective for a combat rogue to spam ambush for their opener, "ambush the target, causing 245% weapon damage plus 902 to target (355% plus 1305 if dagger is equipped). Awards 2 combo points.". So costs 2 gcd and 120 energy to get 4 combo points. If you pop AR or timewarp at the beginning, you could get 6 cp in 3 gcds. On the downside, bandit's guile doesn't build up.
However, RvS + SS + SS + SS= 120 energy and 4 cp in 4 gcds and bandit's guile will ramp up by the time you eviscerate (assuming no cp procs) with shadow focus. Someone else who's better at probability will be able to model the average expected number of cp procs to see if it is worth it.

I think that with the predictable nature or bandit's guile plus allowing a total of 10 CP , the new opener will be RS+SnD+SS to 7 cp to get moderate insight, then your first eviscerate/KS to do 20% more damage. At least with combat. But depending on the player, they could do Ambush -> Ambush -> SnD -> KS -> normal rotation as well if they just want KS to be done asap.

Last edited by Sleete : 03/30/12 at 5:14 AM.

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Old 03/30/12, 4:36 AM   #185
jtstormrage
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Worgen Rogue
 
Stormrage (EU)
Can anyone verify whether Shadow Focus gives one or more free abilities in Shadow Dance (I am not on the beta yet)?

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Old 03/30/12, 5:12 AM   #186
Sleete
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Stormscale
Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
Can anyone verify whether Shadow Focus gives one or more free abilities in Shadow Dance (I am not on the beta yet)?
It doesn't give free abilities in Shadow Dance, Shadow Dance isn't stealth, it is a fake stealth.

Edit: unrelated note, it looks like hemo glyphed will apply the bleed regardless if a bleed is currently on the target. if you're not glypyhed, it requires a bleed to be able to put a bleed on the target. Hemo doesn't put a debuff making your bleeds stronger anymore.

Last edited by Sleete : 03/30/12 at 5:55 AM.

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Old 03/30/12, 5:12 PM   #187
PikaPika1006
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Pandaren Rogue
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by Sleete View Post
It doesn't give free abilities in Shadow Dance, Shadow Dance isn't stealth, it is a fake stealth.

Edit: unrelated note, it looks like hemo glyphed will apply the bleed regardless if a bleed is currently on the target. if you're not glypyhed, it requires a bleed to be able to put a bleed on the target. Hemo doesn't put a debuff making your bleeds stronger anymore.
The glphyed/unglyphed functionality of hemo was reversed in the most recent build.

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Old 03/30/12, 6:33 PM   #188
Xyogan
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Pandaren Monk
 
Uldum
Originally Posted by kindath View Post
Serrated blades seems to have disappeared.
I saw this and felt the need to mention that Serrated Blades is now a passive learned at level 60 when you specialize as Subtlety.

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Old 03/30/12, 7:27 PM   #189
Sleete
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Stormscale
Originally Posted by Xyogan View Post
I saw this and felt the need to mention that Serrated Blades is now a passive learned at level 60 when you specialize as Subtlety.
You sir, are mistaken. imgur: the simple image sharer For a SS of my passive spellbook in sub spec. Was banging on a target dummy and do constant 5 cp eviscerates, and no refresh on rupture or hemo dots.

Glyph: "Your hemorrhage ability only causes lingering damage over time to targets that were already afflicted by a Bleed effect."

Hemo: "An instant strike that deals 100% weapon damage (145% if a dagger is equipped). When used on a target that is bleeding, opens the wound further to deal an additional 40% of the direct strike's damage over 24 sec. Awards 1 combo point. Replaces Sinister Strike."

That is the current mouse over text on the abilities, which is why I mentioned it in my previous post that when glyphed, hemo will put a bleed up on the target regardless if there is already a bleed.

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Old 03/31/12, 10:49 AM   #190
Brotherbear
Piston Honda
 
Orc Rogue
 
Frostwolf
Beta thoughts and notes:

Combat Readiness does not currently share a cooldown with Cloak and my fears regarding Bladeflurry and Leeching Poisons were groundless since LP applies so often there is no meaningful gain from using BF.

Feel free to PM me any specific questions/testing you'd like me to comment on.

Edit: As a side note, currently in the Beta you can choose one specialization and you cannot change it, so I can't test multiple specializations.

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Old 03/31/12, 8:06 PM   #191
PikaPika1006
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Pandaren Rogue
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by Brotherbear View Post
Beta thoughts and notes:

Combat Readiness does not currently share a cooldown with Cloak and my fears regarding Bladeflurry and Leeching Poisons were groundless since LP applies so often there is no meaningful gain from using BF.

Feel free to PM me any specific questions/testing you'd like me to comment on.

Edit: As a side note, currently in the Beta you can choose one specialization and you cannot change it, so I can't test multiple specializations.
Just copy another character over that's in a different spec on live.

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Old 03/31/12, 10:11 PM   #192
Anachon
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Troll Rogue
 
Gul'dan (EU)
Originally Posted by Brotherbear View Post
According to MMO-Champ, Shadowstep also now works on "a target" instead of "an enemy target" which I think is a pretty solid improvement. It likely still won't beat Prep for PvE, but it certainly increases the potential of the talent.
I did some testing with shadowstep and at the moment it's quite interesting.
1.) You can step behind enemies, friendly players and pets (even if ther're not in your group), but no NPCs.
2.) When you aren't targeting anything shadowstep will set you a bit backwards from your current location and activate the 2sec runspeed buff.
3.) Until a certain altitude when you use step in the air you will be teleported to the ground instantly without any falling damage. If you're to high you just resett your fall like the mage blink spell.

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Old 04/01/12, 1:04 PM   #193
Xanjori
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Just some quick thoughts from the small testing Ive done on beta as Subtlety. Subterfuge doesnt count when coming out of vanish, so while at the start of a fight it gives you a good damage increase (Ambush hits much harder than BS for me currently, as well as the increased duration on FW) it will then offer nothing over the rest of combat. For any stand and nuke fight therefore imo where you want prep it may work out as a DPS gain to take Shadow Focus.

Also interested to see if anyone have maths on ShS vs Prep for fights. Obviously anything Ultraxion/Baleroc prep wins, but for fights like Zonozz or Hagara, ShS should win? I cant see BoS competing in a PvE enviroment its cost is too high, and ShS will get you there quicker.

On utility front, I think Cheat Death or Elusiveness would win over leeching poison, the ability to survive or take less damage from a sudden nuke would be more valuable in raiding than a constant small heal.

Last edited by Xanjori : 04/01/12 at 1:10 PM.

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Old 04/01/12, 2:35 PM   #194
Xaoc
Piston Honda
 
Orc Rogue
 
Eitrigg
"Sudden nukes" are generally going to either be scripted as part of the fight (in which case there will be some sort of a raid CD or other mitigation ability), or you were standing somewhere you shouldn't have been. There is not going to be a fight where you take 200k+ in a short time frame and are required to survive, because that would require Blizz designing it around every raid having a rogue.

I think the choice between Feint and Leeching will largely depend on how much time you'll be able to get into melee range, and as a secondary to that, how quickly you're able to attack and get poison procs.

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Old 04/01/12, 3:09 PM   #195
PikaPika1006
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Illidan
Originally Posted by Anachon View Post
I did some testing with shadowstep and at the moment it's quite interesting.
1.) You can step behind enemies, friendly players and pets (even if ther're not in your group), but no NPCs.
2.) When you aren't targeting anything shadowstep will set you a bit backwards from your current location and activate the 2sec runspeed buff.
3.) Until a certain altitude when you use step in the air you will be teleported to the ground instantly without any falling damage. If you're to high you just resett your fall like the mage blink spell.
Those second and third points are you shadowstepping yourself. Really hoping they leave that in.

And I'm able to shadowstep a number of friendly npcs, not all though.

From some limited testing with my druid, it seems any npc I'm able to buff, I'm able to shadowstep.

Last edited by PikaPika1006 : 04/01/12 at 3:20 PM.

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