Mists of Pandaria: All Specs - Page 2

Beepbeeps · 10/27/11, 3:04 PM

KS will also need to be changed to switch your target. In its current implementation you don't lose your target and having 5 combo points and being 10yds from your target with those points will be worthless.

Lumen222 · 10/27/11, 4:08 PM

The wording is clear that you gain the points on the new target. However this does imply to me that Bandit's Guile will be rethought. Otherwise you will not be able to use KS in a multi-target situation without losing your insight.

Feano · 10/27/11, 5:39 PM

Originally Posted by Lumen222

The wording is clear that you gain the points on the new target. However this does imply to me that Bandit's Guile will be rethought. Otherwise you will not be able to use KS in a multi-target situation without losing your insight.

Insight resets when you use SS or RvS on another target, not when you gain combo points through any other means.

I have a more general question about Insight as a whole though- If you gain shallow insight on 1 target, then change targets and Shiv'd some combo points then eviscerated, does it still hit with the 10% extra damage? All damage on the new target infact, not just the evisc.

Part of me think no, because the Insight tooltip reads "Your Insight into your RECENT Target's defenses...".

However the fact Insight is a personal Buff instead of a target Debuff makes me question that idea.

Have these specifics been tested anywhere?

jsz · 10/27/11, 8:30 PM

From the Developer Live Chat today

Ghostcrawler: We are reworking poisons. For starters, rogue damage is balanced around the expectation of two damage poisons, which makes it really brutal to use a utility poision instead. In MoP, you will have one damage poison and one utility poison so you can choose which utility poison to use (and not IF you want a utility poison). We also want to reduce the amount of ramping that rogue DPS requires, such as removing the need for Deadly Poison to stack. (And likewise we want to make Bandit's Guile less punitive when swapping targets.)

Crevan · 10/27/11, 8:31 PM

From the developer live chat that is happening right now:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

We are reworking poisons. For starters, rogue damage is balanced around the expectation of two damage poisons, which makes it really brutal to use a utility poision instead. In MoP, you will have one damage poison and one utility poison so you can choose which utility poison to use (and not IF you want a utility poison). We also want to reduce the amount of ramping that rogue DPS requires, such as removing the need for Deadly Poison to stack. (And likewise we want to make Bandit's Guile less punitive when swapping targets.)

The Bandit's Guile part makes it look like we will still prefer to stick to one target, rather than removing the target swap penalty altogether. As for poisons, the statement doesn't provide too much details, so it's not very clear whether DP will become the main dps poison, will it become some sort of proc, or will it simply be removed from the game.

EDIT: Also of note is this:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

We are removing some of the less interesting buffs and debuffs (+bleed damage, armor, 3% damage, resists are all on the chopping block at the moment).

• Aldriana · 10/27/11, 9:20 PM

I have to admit I'm not entirely a fan of this solution. I mean, it was clear that some sort of poison refactor was in the works - they indicated at Blizzcon that they wanted to add more utility poisons, and based on the two we've seen (Leeching and Paralytic) it didn't appear that they were putting damage components on them. That said: this particular solution seems sort of... arbitrary. Artificial. Something like that. One DPS/one Utility feels like a condition imposed because it makes balance work, not because it makes sense in its own right.

Personally, I was thinking they might turn Instant Poison (and perhaps a handful of other damage poison options - for instance, one with a ignite-style stacking DoT) into a permanent weapon enchant - sort of like DK runeforges - and leave the utility ones as short-term imbues (possibly with reduced duration, to emphasize that these are something you expect to switch out on a regular basis as circumstances dictate). This would point towards the same overall goal - not making utility and damage poisons mutually exclusive - but would require less rebalancing of rogue damage generation, and would give us more utility to play with - both of which seem like desirable properties.

Probaton · 10/28/11, 4:27 AM

I see a lot of people saying stuff like "Sub would still want Shadow Dance" and "Imp recup would be only be good if you were specced into Energetic Recovery" but that just doesn't make any sense. The talent tree IS your spec. These six talent choices are ALL the ones you're going to make.

That said I'm finding it really hard to speculate without having the foggiest clue as to which superfluous talents are going to be implemented as standard abilities and which are going out the window (Energetic Recovery is probably a goner but is Bandit's Guile going to be standard for all spec in MoP?). One thing that did catch my eye was Burst of Speed, which looks suspiciously like Sprint. Does this talent imply that our favorite speed boost's days are numbered?

As for poisons: simply scrapping Deadly would obviously be the quick and dirty solution. It's currently not listed in any of the talent descriptions so it seems possible. Gotta agree with Aldriana that it sounds forced though.

♦ Viper · 10/28/11, 4:44 AM

Originally Posted by Probaton

I see a lot of people saying stuff like "Sub would still want Shadow Dance" and "Imp recup would be only be good if you were specced into Energetic Recovery" but that just doesn't make any sense. The talent tree IS your spec. These six talent choices are ALL the ones you're going to make.

This isn't actually correct. You get a set of abilities baseline for all rogues, another set of abilities comes along with choosing a spec (Assassination, Combat, Subtlety), and then you have the 6 tiers of talent choices which are shared amongst all specs.

To quote from the Q&A tonight:

Q: Regarding the talent trees, will there be trees as we know them at all? I like the way you guys are moving with talents, but I wasn't sure if combat/assassination/subtlety would exist anymore at all? Using a rogue as an example, will all three trees be merged into 'Rogue' now? It's hard to tell from the examples given.
A: Specs as you know them will still exist. At level 10 you can choose Assassination and get Mutilate. We want the specs (especially for the pure classes) to be more distinct than they are today since some of the signature utility is now available to all members of that class. Specs will contain core rotational mechanics and the tools needed to perform your role. Talents complement that with various forms of utility.

As for Burst of Speed, I'm sure Sprint will still exist. Burst of Speed's niche is that it has no cooldown but instead costs energy to use.

Probaton · 10/28/11, 5:40 AM

That's most gratifying to hear, Blizzard had me worried there for a second. Does anyone have a bead on where these 'base' specs can be found? Wowhead seems to be under the impression that these are the only 'specs' available. Or don't they exist yet? If so, forget I asked.

Crevan · 10/28/11, 8:17 AM

Originally Posted by Probaton

One thing that did catch my eye was Burst of Speed, which looks suspiciously like Sprint. Does this talent imply that our favorite speed boost's days are numbered?

To elaborate on what Viper said, some of the talents will function as replacements for existing skills, and Burst of Speed is one of those. If you choose to spec into it, Sprint in your spell book will be replaced with BoS; if you choose some other talent, you will still have access to Sprint.

The revamped talent trees is all we were shown during Blizzcon, so what the actual specs will look like is anyone's guess. Mine is that they will be pretty much equivalent to what we have today, but with all the current mandatory talents rolled into the passive spec bonuses.

liftir · 10/28/11, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by Crevan

To elaborate on what Viper said, some of the talents will function as replacements for existing skills, and Burst of Speed is one of those.

I'm not so sure that this is the case. Spells that are replaced by talents say explicitly in their description "Replaces X". Take for example Asphyxiate for DKs and Faerie Swarm for Druids. There is nothing in the Burst of Speed description to make us think that it replaces Sprint. Of course there's always the possibility that at this early stage in MoP development that this was overlooked and not added into the description.

Armanewb · 10/28/11, 2:31 PM

Originally Posted by liftir

I'm not so sure that this is the case. Spells that are replaced by talents say explicitly in their description "Replaces X". Take for example Asphyxiate for DKs and Faerie Swarm for Druids. There is nothing in the Burst of Speed description to make us think that it replaces Sprint. Of course there's always the possibility that at this early stage in MoP development that this was overlooked and not added into the description.

It looks like a second Sprint, one that possesses the current Improved Sprint functionality. Looking at the alternatives to it, you get Shadowstep (a movement ability that is in addition to Sprint) or Preparation (a utility ability that effectively can give you a second Sprint). There is a large amount of supporting evidence from these abilities that Burst of Speed is its own entity, and not merely a replacement for Sprint.

Fae · 10/28/11, 2:45 PM

There is one thing that confuses me about Burst of Speed. The tooltip says "If you are afflicted by any movement impairing effects, activating this ability will instead...". Does it mean that unlike Improved Sprint that literally makes you burst out of roots (but only once), this ability doesn't give you the speed bonus if you were rooted at the time of it's activation? That would make Burst of Speed something like a package of two totally different abilitiest - either it's another Sprint, or it's a root breaker + 4s root immunity. But not both at once.

If my understanding is correct, I am not sure what to think about this design.

Beepbeeps · 10/28/11, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by Fae

There is one thing that confuses me about Burst of Speed. The tooltip says "If you are afflicted by any movement impairing effects, activating this ability will instead...". Does it mean that unlike Improved Sprint that literally makes you burst out of roots (but only once), this ability doesn't give you the speed bonus if you were rooted at the time of it's activation? That would make Burst of Speed something like a package of two totally different abilitiest - either it's another Sprint, or it's a root breaker + 4s root immunity. But not both at once.

If my understanding is correct, I am not sure what to think about this design.

I read it that way as well, that you get one or the other, but not both effects. This design fits nicely into the PVP vs PVE balance of the ability which I is needed for PVP, where breaking a root/snare is powerful enough as it is, but incredibly useful for PVE if you need a second sprint or more frequent sprints in general. I don't think all abilities should be two-fold like this, but it's an easy way to balance it for both games, which Blizzard wants the ability to do.

I'm more interested in developers saying "we don't want you to spec like the guy next to you", but then having Shadow Dance be a tier 6 ability. As it stands now obviously Subtlety benefits much more from SD than the other specs, but how is that going to change? In a case where we have to choose between utility and damage, we'll always choose damage and this talent seems to only be utility for Assassination/Combat.

Isebel · 10/28/11, 6:05 PM

I look at the tiers and see a lot of good utility that can be used for X fight depending on what mechanics there are behind the fights. Assuming that the core abilities in each spec now will remain in each spec in MoP:

Tier 1- Shadow Focus would probably be the best bet for all specs. Assassination and Sub already use vanish as a dps cooldown for overkill or reapplying find weakness with ambush, it would just make it so you get a free garrote/ambush. It would also make vanish more useful for combat as well to squeeze in an extra ability. I can however see sub benefiting from Subterfuge quite a bit as well, but I think it can go fight for fight.

The rest of the tiers outside of the level 90 tier seem like they would go fight for fight given that there is A LOT of utility based in those abilities. I think there are some that are better than others in your stereotypical Patchwerk fight maybe, but I could see where each of those talents could potentially have a use assuming Blizzard makes some fairly interesting boss mechanics, especially the new poisons.

Personally I think I'd like Vendetta over KS for mut/combat. Obviously KS could have it's benefits on fights where it's a very high priority to swap to a target out of range and burst it quickly. I'm not exactly sure how the new KS would work i.e. still spending a GCD on porting to a target and then another on the finisher, as mentioned by Brotherbear, and manage to squeeze out more damage than you could do under Vendetta on top of the ranged CP generator it gives. It may depend on the spec since restless blades would most likely be a big factor in whether or not it's still in the game or whether or not it might include Vendetta? Overall I see Vendetta coming out on top unless they change how KS works and boost the damage.

It's pretty clear we can only speculate on a lot of this since we don't have distinct numbers or perfect functionality yet, but overall I'm liking Vendetta for mut/combat as my gut pick and SD for Sub assuming core abilities now stay consistent in MoP.