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Old 05/07/12, 10:11 PM   #346
shadowboy813
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Aggramar
I'm fairly certain the boss level dummies on the current beta build are level 93, not 88.

Here is why:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Autoattacks are only 9.8% of my damage done, no hits. All landed non-criticals were glancing, and avoided attacks were 25%. This was with both hit and expertise cap by the character stats sheet. I was level 87 at the time.

Last edited by shadowboy813 : 05/07/12 at 10:18 PM.

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Old 05/07/12, 10:41 PM   #347
Docrev
Piston Honda
 
Undead Rogue
 
Zul'Jin
Typically, boss dummies are your level +3. That's the way that boss mobs have pretty much always been handled.

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Old 05/08/12, 12:58 AM   #348
Sarvius
Don Flamenco
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Maiev
I believe he's correct. I performed a dummy test on my 83 shaman on live and my melee miss/dodge percentages were exactly correct for a +3 level mob, with the majority of the rest of the hits being glances or crits. However, when I attempted spamming lightning bolt I got closer to 30% miss than the 4% expected. The test will probably have to be on a level-appropriate +3 mob.

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Old 05/08/12, 1:22 AM   #349
Docrev
Piston Honda
 
Undead Rogue
 
Zul'Jin
That's a fair point. Conveniently, though, we do have level 85 training dummies. Trying the test again with only 308 hit rating (+3.01% hit), which should take yellow misses off the combat table, but still leave 2.99% spell miss.

EDIT: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...M_gl9ErFo/edit

Over twenty minutes, with the instant portion of Deadly Poison hitting 534 times, no spell misses. I also did a shorter test with no hit rating, where the ratio of instant damage from Deadly Poison to misses was 37:1 (190 total procs, 185 hits, 5 misses), which would be a 2.7% miss rate, which (given the small sample size) seems to support the concept of poisons requiring only the yellow hit cap.

Last edited by Docrev : 05/08/12 at 5:51 AM.

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Old 05/08/12, 5:51 PM   #350
Roketsu86
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Rogue
 
Silvermoon
Originally Posted by Verain View Post
Not that it's very important, but this also makes soloing weak mobs harder, as now you want to open them with garrote or something? Speaking of, it would rock if garrote was non-positional now more than ever.
Rogue (Forums)
Baseline

Evasion no longer reduces the chance that ranged attacks will hit you.
Garrote no longer requires you to be behind the target.


Subtlety

Hemorrhage now deals 140% weapon damage, up from 100%. Now deals 203% weapon damage if a dagger is equipped, up from 145%. Now deals an additional 50% bleeding damage, down from 100%.
Seems like they heard you, Garrote no longer has a positional requirement. Hemo is also getting a bit of a buff. As for the Evasion change though, I have a feeling it's more of a wording change and that since hunters ranged attacks now effectively function the same as melee just from a distance Evasion will still work, but it'd need to be tested.

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Old 05/09/12, 6:47 AM   #351
Seliathan
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Troll Rogue
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
I know it doesn't really have any importance concerning DPS or mechanics but... It looks like we finally have our swirly ball back - Mists of Pandaria beta - Swirly Ball is BACK FOR REAL - YouTube

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Old 05/09/12, 4:27 PM   #352
Jodou
Von Kaiser
 
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Worgen Rogue
 
Laughing Skull
Originally Posted by Seliathan View Post
I know it doesn't really have any importance concerning DPS or mechanics but... It looks like we finally have our swirly ball back - Mists of Pandaria beta - Swirly Ball is BACK FOR REAL - YouTube
More specifically:
Originally Posted by MMO-Champion
Minor Glyphs

Glyph of Detection - Teaches you the ability Detection. Focus intently on trying to detect something.
I seem to recall a dev stating they wanted minor glyphs to be 'just for fun', so unlike Detect Traps of the past this is more than likely purely cosmetic and a throwback to vanilla rogues.

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Old 05/10/12, 3:28 AM   #353
Rosvall
Piston Honda
 
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Pandaren Rogue
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
Originally Posted by Seliathan View Post
I know it doesn't really have any importance concerning DPS or mechanics but... It looks like we finally have our swirly ball back - Mists of Pandaria beta - Swirly Ball is BACK FOR REAL - YouTube
Will, BACK FOR REAL is kinda a lie. Can not use it while mounted anymore :C

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Old 05/10/12, 3:48 AM   #354
madsushi
Baller
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Rosvall View Post
Will, BACK FOR REAL is kinda a lie. Can not use it while mounted anymore :C
Unfortunately I made that video a few PTRs ago, here's the latest build:


Author of the Rogue column on WoW Insider and Armory+

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Old 05/10/12, 11:59 AM   #355
Jodou
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Worgen Rogue
 
Laughing Skull
Rogue Beta Q&A

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
As I stated this thread is NOT meant to rant on about things I find wrong. I am merely asking for an explanation as to WHY some of these changes have happened. Usually when they make this types of changes I can get a sense as to what caused it/the reasoning behind them even if I think they are wrong.
Totally fair and reasonable. I'll handle some of these. Please be understanding that I am one guy and I have a day job. It's not realistic for me spend equal amounts of time on every class thread every day. We read all of these posts though, because reading is much faster than responding.

1) Sang Vein change to exclude hemo: Currently this SUB ONLY buff excluded hemo….which is SUB's REPLACEMENT for SS. I find it very odd that a spec specific buff would exclude the only spec specific bleed it has.
Honor Among Thieves generates a lot of combo points, so we think having multiple finishers is appropriate, so we want Rupture to be used in the rotation. Sang Vein being used only on Hemo, while convenient, meant Rupture could be skipped over easily. We understand that this has PvP ramifications and we're prepared to buff if necessary, which in this case I think is likely. Note that it is much harder for us to predict PvP damage compared to PvE damage, so it requires a lot more testing and player feedback. (Also note that most classes do have a significant gap between PvE and PvP damage, and that's fine.) We agree that Rupture would feel better as a button to push if it rewarded you with better damage. That's something we're looking at.

2) Hemo DoT buffed: Now don’t get me wrong, I welcome any damage buff….but buffing a DoT (on a skill you recently excluded from SV no less)?
We buffed all of Hemo, not just the DoT. This is partial compensation for the above change, but as I said above, probably not enough compensation for PvP yet.

Hemo is like Mangle -- it's the button you're supposed to use in PvE when you can't get behind the target. It's a dps loss, but not a huge one. It's a minor DPS increase in PvE to use both Backstab and Hemo at the same time, but we'd prefer that to be a niche strategy.


Venomous Wounds not procing on both Garrote and Rupt when both are up.
This was all part of a suite of changes to discourage the use of Vanish (and Prep) as DPS cooldowns. We generally want utility / survival cooldowns to get used for that. It sort of sucks when you are asked to give up your survivability button in order to max DPS. (Yes Shadow Focus still gives a slight DPS increase for using Vanish, but we can live with that.)

Para/Leeching poison mutually exclusive.
It will probably be unlikely for very optimized players to take both poisons. We think they are appropriate in each of their talent tiers though and you have other choices to take in both cases. This seems like it’s on the level of someone who chooses an AE talent for a single target fight.

Versatility: This talent..well has some issues I think.
We don’t want cps on the rogue. That’s not the design. The rogue builds up attacks against a target. We understand though that sometimes the build up can be overly restrictive, which is why we have cooldowns like Redirect, and we understand some players love rogues but just can’t stand the cp target switching limitation. Versatility is for them.

The level 90 tier for rogues is supposed to feel like it breaks the rules (you know, within reason). Shuriken gives a ranged attack to a melee class. Versatility overcomes the rule that cps are on the target. Anticipation overcomes the rule that there are 5 cps.


HaT not proccing unless in combat: First it was not proccing in stealth, then you change it to not proccing out of combat at all. Again I ask…why? What was the purpose here?
First, we don't like players to have to live with burden of building up something before a fight starts. It may be a DPS increase, but it's not a fun one. More specifically though, we didn't want Anticipation and HaT to build up 10 cps before the fight even begins. Obviously, I hope, that just couldn't fly.

And what of Find Weakness? And Find Weakness's synergy with Preparation? Those alone, at least for Subtlety, introduces the concept of a mandatory talent.
It's fair to say that Prep is going to be more of a dps increase for Sub than the other two specs. Still, there are also fights (in PvE) where the other two talents are just as useful. We're still considering ways to solve that issue though without nerfing the cool aspects of Prep.

To speak nothing of the Shadow Walk glyph in PvP, which will be another forced requirement, since all Rogues will be working under the competitive expectation of squaring off like that.
We understand the concern, but we're not convinced -- yet -- that it will be a problem. Shadow Walk is up such a brief period of time, and you're giving up a whole glyph slot for that brief theoretical "double stealth" encounter against another rogue.

It's a wording change, because the dodge chance now applies to shots as well as melee attacks. If anything, it's a buff, now you have 50% against range attacks.
This is correct. I will say that I am totally in favor of complete hyposcrisy from one day to the next (the thread title), just so you can quote me on it from now on.
Source

I don't claim to be a SME on the class as I've been away for about a year, but these appear to be in line with the conjectures made here so far.

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Old 05/10/12, 3:22 PM   #356
Rosvall
Piston Honda
 
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Pandaren Rogue
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
They state that it's easy to just skip rupture if we get SV from other sources. But.. shouldn't rupture being more Damage/cp(and energy) as it has almost always been be enough to justify using rupture?

With the current design they are making it even less profitable to switch targets, or to keep dps up when a boss goes into some sort of immune phase where rupture drops. I guess anticipation offsets this.. but that's kinda forcing a talent.

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Old 05/10/12, 3:34 PM   #357
Pathal
Don Flamenco
 
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Worgen Rogue
 
Doomhammer
I think he meant it as in minor DPS loss, in the same way that some Combat rogues don't bother with Rupture. Sub could (hypothetically) be at a similarly minor loss if they just ignored Rupture.

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Old 05/10/12, 3:58 PM   #358
yanhero
Von Kaiser
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Illidan
Now we are at risk of a huge dps lost if we let rupture drop for even just a couple sec per fight. If they still make it so we can't replace a 5 cp rupture with a lower cp one, it will happen quite often.

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Old 05/10/12, 6:54 PM   #359
Grimwolf
Von Kaiser
 
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Worgen Rogue
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Honor Among Thieves generates a lot of combo points, so we think having multiple finishers is appropriate, so we want Rupture to be used in the rotation.
I believe that Blizzard would like to make Rupture and CT vital to our rotation. Combining that with keeping SnD up will make it difficult to weave in very many Eviscerates; however, it should ensure that Sanguinary Vein stays up full time during a fight.

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Old 05/21/12, 4:20 AM   #360
jtstormrage
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Worgen Rogue
 
Stormrage (EU)
Originally Posted by Grimwolf View Post
I believe that Blizzard would like to make Rupture and CT vital to our rotation. Combining that with keeping SnD up will make it difficult to weave in very many Eviscerates; however, it should ensure that Sanguinary Vein stays up full time during a fight.
We will not be required to keep up Crimson Tempest to benefit from the reworked Sanguinary Veins. Only Rupture or Garrote (in the present build at least).

I do not think this change will be that bad. In PVE (I will not speak for PVP because I hardly play it), when we move to another target as Sub, if there is some distance to walk (e.g. from the Arm Tentacle to the Mutuated Corruption on Deathwing), we usually get a HAT proc on the way and so we can start on the new target with a Rupture. If the target is close, we can Redirect or simply do a Backstab or Hemo to start up a one point Rupture. It is one extra GCD.

If really there is a lot of target switching, we can pick Versatility, although I suspect there will be very few fights where it is better that Anticipation for Sub.

I accept that will slightly reduce our quality of life but it is "keeping up two things" (Rupture and Slice and Dice, instead of Slice and Dice and Recuperate) and so is not that bad. Also, bear in mind that the baseline duration for Slice and Dice and Rupture has been increased and so we will be able weave in plenty of Eviscerates and our rotation won't be too chaotic, even when changing targets.

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