Mists of Pandaria: All Specs - Page 28

Calchexas · 07/10/12, 8:10 PM

Ok, here's the set of three combat parses that I promised (bear in mind I'm less familiar and less comfortable with Combat, so these may not be as clean as the Assassination parses I posted yesterday):

Legendary Daggers: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
PvP Sword / PvP Sword: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
PvP Sword / PvP Dagger: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Verain · 07/12/12, 12:20 AM

In theory, it seems to me that Assassination is the spec where you are least likely to want to carry over points using Anticipation because of the high cost of Mutilate and because deliberately building up points will cost Envenom uptime.

My intuition is the opposite, actually- because a 5 point envenom has more energy returned on average, I would assume that a 5 point envenom would overcome the slightly extra uptime you see on envenom-buff, just as you don't want to run 1 point envenoms, or 2 point envenoms. On live, I'm pretty sure the only reason we run 4+ is because we have to factor in the destroyed combo points- if you run 3+ envenom you lose no CPs, but the weaker envenoms / less energy efficiency hurts you too much. Run 4+ you lose combo points going from 3 -> "6" when you get a crit, but that has simmed to be more worthhile than the 3+. Run 5 envenom on live and you lose 2-3 combo points from mutilating with 4 CPs, in addition to the ones you can lose via 4+, and that adds up to less damage.

With anticipation, I would think you would almost ALWAYS run 5 envenom- the leftover combo points are delivered to you presently, creating a continuity you can't get on live. Land at 4 CPs, on live you hit envenom, and then mutilate and have, say, 3 combo points. On beta you mutilate first, going to 5+2 with the same "dice", press envenom, and now you are at two instead of three, but you got a better envenom for your energy's worth.

I could be wrong about that? I haven't simmed or anything.

Pathal · 07/12/12, 1:00 AM

A couple weeks back when I was doing the APM calcs on the beta forums, I ended up doing a several target dummy logs with and without Anticipation. It may be disappointing, but I not only saw no DPS gain from using Anticipation, but I actually lost somewhere over 500 DPS.

That said, I don't think it was an adequate testing environment and I'd like to try it again tomorrow. But I do think there's validity to the idea that Anticipation won't be good for Assassination though, or at least as good as it may originally seem.

jtstormrage · 07/12/12, 6:55 AM

During a normal rotation, I think Anticipation will be used to pick Seal Fate procs if we are at 3 points and Mutilate crits, just like it will pick up overflow from Revealing Strike CP procs for Combat or extra HAT procs for Sub. EDIT: Anticipation will also be very much appreciated during Shadow Blades for all three specs when we are doing 3 or 4 point Mutilates.

Otherwise, I think 4 point Mutilates will be used, as they are now, to maximise Envenom uptime.

There will however be time when we actively use it to store combo points, e.g. perhaps just before using Vendetta to apply a fresh Rupture and a quick Envenom, or just before Heroism or on a target switch.

Happy to be corrected however as the above is theoryrafting.

Pathal · 07/12/12, 11:33 AM

Anticipation: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Essentially every finisher was with 5CP, exceptions being the rare low CP rupture and Slice and Dice.

Without: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
I played similar to live. Stopped using mutilate at 4CP, used Blindside as soon as it proc'ed except when at 5CP.

44409.0 / 43124.1 = 1.0297954

~3% DPS increase sounds pretty mediocre to me actually. This is definitely within the realm of RNG and performance despite the logs being 9+ minutes. The other two players were not on the target dummy I was on so external debuffs being present for only one log should not be an issue for this.

• Aldriana · 07/12/12, 12:07 PM

Historically it has been the case that optimizing for Envenom uptime is less efficient than optimizing for raw finisher damage. I remember that we've run numbers on 3+ cycles and 1Mut cycles and found them generally less damage than the 4+ rotation. Buff uptime matters, but historically finisher damage has mattered more. That said: the balance of many skills has been adjusted in this expansion, so its entirely possible that that's no longer true.

However, it should also be noted that regardless of how the numbers work out, I don't expect the difference to be large. Its not going to be a 10% difference. It probably won't even be a 5% difference. But that doesn't mean its bad - historically, 3% DPS would be a very good talent, particularly when you consider that on most fights the other options aren't going to do anything. And it certainly provides other benefits beyond the 3% damage increase. So is it game-changingly amazing? Maybe not. But I do think it is a very solid talent - quite possibly the best one anywhere in our talent tree.

Grimwolf · 07/12/12, 12:24 PM

Yes, but hasn't Envenom's damage been nerfed compared to Eviscerate? Also, does anyone else spam buttons as a matter of habit? If I don't hear the sound effect for Envenom, I'll hit the button again. Maybe it's lag, but I assume I don't have the energy. Several times I've hit a 5 pt Envenom, only to hit a 2 pt Envenom right after it on accident. When this happens, Anticipation is more of a curse as my Envenom buff actually decreases in time after the second hit.

Verain · 07/13/12, 3:53 AM

Well, many addons will give you a different noise when you hit 5 combo points- I think comergy does, or it could be another. With anticipation, I would just listen for that noise that means "5 combo points active" before pressing envenom.

If you don't hear the envenom noise... hrm, I bet an addon could fix that too!

jtstormrage · 07/13/12, 4:58 AM

Originally Posted by Pathal

Anticipation: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Essentially every finisher was with 5CP, exceptions being the rare low CP rupture and Slice and Dice.

Without: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
I played similar to live. Stopped using mutilate at 4CP, used Blindside as soon as it proc'ed except when at 5CP.

44409.0 / 43124.1 = 1.0297954

~3% DPS increase sounds pretty mediocre to me actually. This is definitely within the realm of RNG and performance despite the logs being 9+ minutes. The other two players were not on the target dummy I was on so external debuffs being present for only one log should not be an issue for this.

Thank you for this.

According to the second parse you did not have snd up. Is that right? World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

If so, do you think that would make up the difference between the two?

Calchexas · 07/13/12, 7:50 AM

Originally Posted by jtstormrage

Thank you for this.

According to the second parse you did not have snd up. Is that right? World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

If so, do you think that would make up the difference between the two?

No, that is likely to be a bug in WoL, I was having the same thing happen when I uploaded my parses as well. I did a sanity check on mine and found the # of autoattacks on a log with 0% SnD to be within tolerance to a log with 100% uptime (while knowing ingame showed SnD up for both parses).

Seeing Pathal's work before, I'm going to assume that he didn't forget something so fundamental :P

Pathal · 07/13/12, 11:34 AM

If I did, it's because of a bug with my addon code (aura manager) as I'm positive I saw the buff up in the UI.

I can do several more tests later to be sure though.

EDIT: Since the realms are still down. This was via the log browser.

[10:35:28.321] Pathal gains Slice and Dice from Pathal
[10:35:28.321] Pathal casts Slice and Dice
[10:47:10.272] Pathal's Slice and Dice fades from Pathal
[10:49:36.724] Pathal gains Slice and Dice from Pathal
[10:49:36.724] Pathal casts Slice and Dice

The log was cut off before the SnD ended, and the cast was right at the start of the second session. Looks like it was up to me.

I also took two random intervals (arbitrary lengths that were over couple minutes) from both sessions and compared the white swings per second. They were within a couple % of each other, due to latency, artifact from converting to continuous from discrete, whatever. If SnD wasn't working for one session, it likely wouldn't have been working for both of them.

Calchexas · 07/14/12, 12:38 PM

Rogue
Item - Rogue T14 4P Bonus: Increases the duration of your Shadow Blades ability by 12 sec.

Talents
Nightstalker now increases the damage your abilities deal while stealthed by 25%.

Combat
Restless Blades now also works with Shadow Blades.

Subtlety
Sanguinary Vein now also increases the damage of your Rupture ability by 50%.

Via mmo-champion, per the newest beta patch. Looks like more damage for Sub dependent on having Rupture up on a target, and a pretty significant buff to Combat. Doesn't seem like there's any worth in not macroing Shadow Blades to Adrenaline Rush now, and Combat will be even more overflowing with CPs.

jtstormrage · 07/16/12, 5:43 AM

This makes AR an even more important cooldown, assuming it is always used with SB. They will always come off cd at the same time, and the extra haste from AR makes SB 20% more powerful.

The only "problems" I can see with this are:

1 - Massive cp generation due to double cp generation with SB and extra Relentless Strikes procs = energy capping during AR.

2 - Combat's dps is even more heavily baked into this combination. It is lower than the other specs on beta and this buff to Combat is intended to equalise the specs. Whilst having such a good combination of abilities is nice, especially if there are fights where burst damage is required, there is also risk for Combat Rogues because they need to time their cd usage better.

Having Restless Blades reducing the cd of SB makes the (revised) 4 piece t14 really really nice for Combat (24 seconds every ~1.5 mins).

As to the Rupture buff for Sub, this is welcome. I have never thought having to roll rupture is such a big deal for PVErs - we will just start with a one point rupture or a Redirect on a switch or a Vanish-Garrote. It still doesn't help PvPrs that much who will still suffer from reduced control and/or burst due to the SV change.

Rosvall · 07/17/12, 1:44 AM

Originally Posted by jtstormrage

The only "problems" I can see with this are:

1 - Massive cp generation due to double cp generation with SB and extra Relentless Strikes procs = energy capping during AR.

Will be interesting to see if you actually do energycap. Because if that's the cause the new AR glyph will be extremely good. Basically it will increase dps 25% while AR is active (assuming capping even then) as well as increase combo points gained by the same amount. Thus decreasing AR CD.

Rfeann · 07/20/12, 12:43 AM

Well. This could make things marginally more interesting for the discussion about Anticipation use with Envenom (or, perhaps, Envenom use in general during periods of high energy regen, or later in the expansion once haste levels are high enough):

[T]he benefit of this functionality (being able to clip the last tick with no loss) has been extended to a few additional spells. These spells have been turned into periodics, despite not really doing anything periodically, so that you can take advantage of this same ability to clip the last couple seconds with no loss. Inquisition, Haunt, Revealing Strike, Envenom, and Savage Roar work this way. For example, Savage Roar uses a 3 sec periodic tick rate under the hood, so that if it normally lasts 18 sec, and you recast it after 17 sec, it will have 19sec remaining. Total of 36 sec for two casts of it, despite clipping it by 1 sec. We hope this is a nice little quality of life change (and should obviously have no downside).

(source: Beta Class Balance Analysis - Forums - World of Warcraft)