I'd think that the level 90 choice would be based on whatever does the most damage, which will of course need to be theorycrafted out once we have all the numbers. i don't think its a matter of which you might like best - its gonna be whatever produces the largest number, except on any fights where you might have an urgent need to do a pathetic amount of damage to a target at range, or find KSp's uncontrolled movement too dangerous to use effectively.

That said: my money is currently on KSp winding up ahead when all is said and done; I also sincerely hope they revise both options (and possibly Shadow Dance as well), as I'm not a particular fan of either ability, even after their revisions.

There are no more "specs" as we know them. Forget the current spec tree as it stands on live at the moment, because the impression I've received is that those are gone. The only thing pertaining to specs specifically is going to be that overview page we currently have where it tells you the overview of each spec. So there is no more choosing of different abilities in your "spec", those are now all built in and will be granted to you as you level in that spec.

The easiest way for me to try and summarize it all is that you have to disconnect your spec from your talent tree as they are now two VERY different things. You choose your spec and that tells you what your rotation is and how you'll play in general, e.g. Assassination gets Mutilate, Subtlety gets Hemo, Combat gets AR (I can't say for sure that these will be definitively unique abilities per spec come 5.0, but I'm just giving possible examples). Then you also choose your 6 talents which grant additional abilities that may be useful in more specific scenarios.

For assassination, when we use Vendetta on boss fights the accessibility to a 30 energy 1 CP generating ability that does 145% weapon damage would let us get the 5th combo point every time when mutilating only gets us to 4 points.(That is if you mutilate to 4 points during vendetta the vengeful strike will guarantee the 5th with no loss of a combo point save for SF) We'll want to take into account that during Vendetta we'll be doing 5pt envenoms. Of course the assumption is that Assassination will play similarly to how it does on live (1+ rup 4+ env).

As a side note I find that the idea of making an anti-kiter build with DB, Deadly Throw, ShS, and vendetta is both amusing and intriguing. However the PvE merits for this seem lacking.

We already have an ability that can do just that: Sinister Strike. We don't use it because SS-ing in this way is a dps loss. Perhaps this new strike does enough damage to off-put that dps loss but the availability of a 1-cp ability does not automatically mean no more 4+ finishers.

Incidentally the chances of wasting a cp using VS to hit 5 is still not 0. If Seal Fate still exists you're still going to run the risk of critting and throwing away a cp.

Are you still talking about assassination? Sinister strike is a 45 energy strike with no multiplier for daggers.

Vengeful strike is closer in comparison to backstab sub-35%, which you'll note DOES do 5 combo point envenoms, even though backstab can crit and produce two combo points.


Anyway, that's an interesting usage for vengeful strike that I didn't think of, but I suspect that with the damage compared to other builders, it's designed more to just be a way to continue building combo points should you have to move away from the boss.

Very much so, but I'd be concerned about energy capping, particularly if you take shadow focus for a free opener. I'm definitely looking forward to killing spree as assassination.

The damage comparison is really between getting all your stuff rolling at the start, vs waiting a few seconds until you have five stacks of deadly and getting three full strength envenoms. I don't know which would be better.

Maybe an opener something like (free) garrote > mutilate (since energy capped) > rupture > (snd if ruth proc'd, if it even still exists | mutilate > snd) > killing spree > envenom > ks > env > ks > env?

Don't forget that they already mentioned that they were trying to get rid of the high ramp-up times resulting from deadly poison and bandit's guile stacking. If they do actually remove the stacks from deadly poison and make it a single stack, much like they did with the old wound poison, using KS with Assassination might actually be a good solution to get everything rolling the second the fight starts. Depending on whether they include Find Weakness for Sub, KS might be great for Sub as well for the very same reason (in case they remove Find Weakness altogether, making Shadowdance just some additional ambushes)

The point is these three envenoms couldn't be full strength because you wouldn't take full benefit from the buff due to excessive clipping. Envenom buff is a great part of envenom's real damage output, and having to clip it (just as we will have to with the forthcoming legendary daggers) has always been a waste.

That said, it sounds pretty tricky to speculate on which spec will take the most benefit from KSp as we just don't know which talents will remain in the passive trees. As an example, the potential for synergy with both KSp and RB is awesome as a combat rogue, but we just don't know right now if RB will remain when 5.0 comes.

I would recommand to keep in mind that while opening with KSP sounds really appealing as an assassination rogue, you wouldn't take full benefit from it later during the fight.

In addition to the poison changes Tekloth mentioned, there was also a confirmation that Bandit's Guile will become "an inherent buff on the Rogue", further reducing the penalty we suffer from target swapping.

Keep in mind that BoS shares the talent tier with Preparation and Shadowstep, which are pretty much mandatory for rogue pvp today. With competition like this, I doubt it's going to be a no-brainer choice.

Finally, something not rogue-specific but still relevant to us: simplified raid buff system:
So, we won't have to worry about armour and bleed debuffs (and about magic damage taken to some extent).

I think you are incorrect on this. To quote the answer the rest of the way, "Also remember there are still debuffs and utility abilities, such as knockbacks and snares."

Utility abilities and debuffs, like the mentioned snares and knockbacks, are not meant to affect dps. And in fact, looking over the transcript of the first live Q&A with developers (27th of October), GC said the following: "We are removing some of the less interesting buffs and debuffs (+bleed damage, armor, 3% damage, resists are all on the chopping block at the moment)."

I would have to agree with this. Mobility has been and issue and this seems to limit it more than ever for PVP. However, I think the choice is extremely nice for a PvE setting. The ability to use prep as any spec seems to be a very nice addition to the PvE rogue imo. There are a lot of fights in the past where having double cloak could easily have saved a rogue. Additionally, an extra vanish and sprint won't seem to bring additional utility for rogues, especially if you take Subterfuge or Shadow Focus. I think Preparation would be my go to talent for PvE (of course, this would depend on how they design encounters in MoP, but I think the added benefit of double cloak/vanish outweighs that of teleporting to a target and spending 60 energy on a sprint).

I wanted to make sure I am reading the new Killing spree correctly. If I am reading it correcly, you get to use the ability and generate an instant 5 combo points on that target. If that is correct, it seems pretty nice. I would guess you would get 15 free combo points out of it, assuming you used it then the finisher each time. Anyone else reading it the same or differently? I think past discussion has pointed more towards you get 5 cps over the course of the 5 seconds. This may be OP for PvP. Having 15 combo points in 5 seconds, along with the damage it deals, seems like a way to instagib someone.

Along with KS, Vendetta seems really nice for both PvE and PvP. We all know th trouble of ranging a boss/enemy. Not only does the talent give us increased damage, it also lets us deal with those times where the boss it OOR fairly well. Granted, it isn't going to produce the greatest damage, but some damage is greater than no damage. It is hard to say how useful it will end up being in the beginning of MoP, but I would see this being very useful on specific encounters.

While there is some lack of useful talents in certain tiers for either PvP or PvE (i.e. lvl 75 for PvE, unless the have an encounter like H-Nef where crippling poison was OP), I think these new talents will bring some interesting playstyle to rogues.

As far as talents go, I am a little worried about what they have listed on the site. Currently, I am not seeing passive abilities for things such as imp SnD, Precision, Agression, Savage Combat, Ruthlessness, etc. I am sure there is a whole list of other ones, but I was specifically looking at the current combat build vs new talents for rogues. Do you think that they are removing this sorts of additions from rogues, they haven't been implemented yet, or they just want to remove them? Thoughts?