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Old 09/13/12, 1:05 PM   #526
Haileaus
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Undead Rogue
 
<Vex>
Gorefiend
Might this mean that at the lower levels of mastery that we will see in t14 eviscerate might be better?

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Old 09/15/12, 6:55 PM   #527
Onner
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Rogue
 
Ner'zhul
Crimson Tempest

Crimson Tempest should now stack correctly with Sanguinary Veins and Mastery: Executioner.

After this hot fix it looks like CT will not be part of the rotation as now the CT dot does not double dip from SV and Sub mastery.
Before the Dot would do more damage than it should but now that has been fixed

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Old 09/15/12, 8:03 PM   #528
Inshadows85
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Blackhand
Originally Posted by Onner View Post
Crimson Tempest should now stack correctly with Sanguinary Veins and Mastery: Executioner.

After this hot fix it looks like CT will not be part of the rotation as now the CT dot does not double dip from SV and Sub mastery.
Before the Dot would do more damage than it should but now that has been fixed
Did a few hours of testing tonight, and was able to confirm that there are now no instances where CT Strike + CT DoT are greater than the damage of an eviscerate.

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Old 09/21/12, 4:18 AM   #529
jtstormrage
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Worgen Rogue
 
Stormrage (EU)
•Sanguinary Vein now provides at 16% damage increase (down from 20%).
A relatively minor nerf (~3.5%).

I don't know how much people have played Sub PvE since 5.0.4? I think most people have been playing Assassination.

I played it a bit and the damage is comparable to Assassination, if not slightly higher.

The burst is ridiculous - was doing 2M on Spine tendons (saving up legendary procs).

Damage has been moved around and is more in auto-attacks, Shadow Dance and finishers. Backstab and Hemo are very weak.

Sub scales very well with gear and so may not be as competitive in tier 14. However, I would not be surprised if Sub was not competitive with Assassination. I hope and expect that Combat will struggle, unless there is cleave, as has been the case since ICC.

This nerf is relatively minor in the scheme of things. It arguably brings Sub damage down in line with some of the other single target specs.

Last edited by jtstormrage : 09/21/12 at 7:07 AM.

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Old 09/21/12, 6:02 AM   #530
Omanko
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Worgen Priest
 
Ravencrest (EU)
I expect Combat to gain some ground once we have access to Shadow Blades; using it that more often could prove to be extremely satisfying for Combat enthusiasts. The cleave thing is, of course, always a consideration.

As for Sub, I agree that it performed extremely well. Perhaps too well, hence the nerfs (first CT, now SV). The last SimCraft results I remember for T14 did in fact have Sub as the top spec, that should have changed now. Overall though, I think we can be rather happy with how our specs turned out for MoP - all of them are competitive, fun to play, and diverse.

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Old 09/21/12, 10:53 PM   #531
fffxc2
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Exodar
I was looking at shadow blades usage as assassination and what I found is that it appears that on fights of certain lengths it should sometimes be worth delaying the last usage of shadow blades until the target is below 35% (in cases where you won't be able to fit another if you don't delay).

I arrived at this by looking at the energy cost per combo point of mut+blindside rotation vs dispatch. While not under shadow blades, mut+blindside generates more combo points per energy than the dispatch rotation except at very high levels of crit (90%+).

However, while under shadow blades, the dispatch rotation is better combo points per energy than mut+blindside at all levels of crit.

Thus, it should be a slight dps gain to delay shadow blades until you transition to dispatch rotation at 35%. I am not sure how much of a gain this is however, but the effect is most pronounced at low and high levels of crit.

Here is a link to a spreadsheet with the calculations. I really want other people to check my calculations, since this is my first time doing something like this on my own.

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Old 09/22/12, 5:57 PM   #532
dizzlex
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Goblin Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
I don't know how I feel about combat being the worst single target spec now. With changes to Sub to simplify the spec and with the changes to RS and Rupture addition, combat is now the hardest of the specs to play.

Although cleave is always a factor, I think that making the hardest spec (admittedly, not that hard) do the least amount of damage on single target, probably isn't the best design in regards to promoting spec diversity.

At this point it pretty much feels like Combat is reserved for fights that have little to no aoe, and a cleave opportunity. Is that really what we want from Combat? A spec reserved for cleave.

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Old 09/22/12, 6:21 PM   #533
Pathal
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Worgen Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Are you just basing this off SimC, or do you actually have proof that Combat is discernibly behind Assassination and Sub?

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Old 09/22/12, 10:31 PM   #534
dizzlex
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Goblin Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
I think any proof is impossible at this point, simply because we don't actually have real raid results from t14 gear and we can only use the Simcraft as a best guess. I can say from my first hand experience raiding on beta, that there are several fights where the cleave is VERY powerful, but I have tested fairly extensively on almost every boss and I can say that for single target It is hard to beat Sub. With the hot fix today, it might pull Sub back near Assassination, but I can't say that I have any real confidence in combat for single target at the moment.

With that said, fights like Stone Guardian make combat the clear choice. I just don't know if it's healthy to have to use a spec only for cleave situations because it's so much stronger for cleave, and then to balance that out by making it weaker in aoe and single target fights.

The best I can offer is what we know at 85, and what we know from test dummy testing at 90. Using this information, it is fair to say that with the data we have available to us now, that Combat is behind the other two specs in regards to single target damage. The limited parses we have raid testing on beta don't seem to contradict this.

But as for now, it certainly is conjecture without conclusive proof, but so is any theory crafting we do at this point.

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Old 09/23/12, 1:11 AM   #535
Omanko
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Ravencrest (EU)
Always keep in mind that SimCraft is a theorycrafting tool, not an absolute measure of some ideal goal to reach when raiding. The very nature of content being limited to a relatively low number of very specific fights makes the actual numbers vastly different from the simulated ones.

That being said, SimCraft does help illustrate potential problems in relative powers of classes/specs. Combat being behind by a significant margin could very well be a cause for concern. However, never forget to also make the transition from theory into practice - as you pointed out, the nature of the fights changes the actual results from their theoretical values, often quite significantly.

This does not only apply to cleave, either. There may be cooldowns to allign, or phases that require burst, or lots of movement, or any of a plethora of other factors that are not usually included in a basic SimCraft ranking. Blizzard knows this, and they are taking it into account when balancing specs. One could say that the very reason for the new talent system was this, the ability to adapt on a per-fight basis, lessening the impact of certain specs on a given encounter.

As to which spec is "harder" to play, that is very much in the eye of the beholder. Also, "harder" specs often leave more room for skillful players to craft an edge for themselves, which is widely regarded a positive thing. As I stated previously, I personally feel that right now, Rogues are in a pretty good spot concerning the variety, complexity, and difference in play style between their three specs.

The only beef that, in my opinion, remains, is the aforementioned cleave. As Aldriana has already noted in his excellent blog post, the existence of Blade Flurry skews results and preferences in a way that is way more relevant than the SimCraft margins between the three specs. If anything, we should be upset about that, not the small differences in relative rankings.

And as always, the verdict is still out on actual, live raiding. Once we get deeper into T14 heroics, and past the initial wave of nerfs/buffs that is no doubt to come at the start of this expansion's raid progression, I think we will re-evaluate. It may be too early to cry out, but I do agree that the situation as a whole warrants constant monitoring. And that includes all factors, not just SimCraft rankings!

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Old 09/28/12, 3:57 AM   #536
Valadar
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Illidan
The Anticipation talent can be used as a sort of low-cost Redirect.

The first step is to get 5 CPs on your target and build any number of Anticipation Charges. Next, select your new target, get in range, and use Crimson Tempest. This will apply CT (for Sanguinary Vein) and immediately use your Anticipation Charges to build CPs on your new target, for only 10 energy (35 from CT cost, +25 from RS).

I think this swings the favor of level 90 talents further in Anticipation's direction.

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Old 09/28/12, 3:31 PM   #537
Rfeann
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Sentinels
Happy Brewfest, boozers!

Not sure yet what the ICD is on the [Coren's Cold Chromium Coaster] (tests would be most welcome; Shadowcraft currently assumes it's 50s), but it's likely to be somewhere between 45 and 60 seconds. So at best (45s ICD), the raw EP numbers for it would be:

Assassination: 3312.23
Combat: 3383.28
Subtlety: 3482.54

At worst (60s ICD), they'd be:

Assassination: 2709.56
Combat: 2780.61
Subtlety: 2879.87

Either way, the trinket comes up short of every other level-90 trinket on the list across all specs. Hooray for native crit!

Even if we assume that we'll reforge out of some of that crit and into mastery (Assassination) or haste (Combat/Sub), the trinket *still* comes up short across the board.

Last edited by Rfeann : 09/28/12 at 4:16 PM.

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Old 09/28/12, 5:46 PM   #538
Pathal
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Worgen Rogue
 
Doomhammer
The assumption is that it works like every other Coren trinket. Since it was 50s in the past, we just put 50s for the new one.

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Old 09/29/12, 3:03 AM   #539
Rfeann
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Sentinels
(EDIT 9/29: I should note that I posted all the stuff below before I saw the 9/28 hotfix notes, which included an item stating that the alchemy stone should now be working as intended. The hotfix must not have been applied yet on my server, or perhaps require a client-side fix; I tried again Saturday morning and got the same results as below.)

----

I am really new to this dummy-testing thing, so these logs from tonight might be useless. But I got the [Zen Alchemist Stone] and wanted to see what I could learn about its ICD by whaling on a dummy for a while. So I did -- as Assassination, on a level-85 dummy (since this was purely a proc test), sometimes in my Cata gear (including Landslide-enchanted legendaries), sometimes in the fashionable-but-useless gear I usually log off in (gear that, other than the new trinket, includes nothing that procs or applies buffs/debuffs). And maybe I just did a really stupid job of testing, but this trinket was behaving weirdly for me.

It seemed never to proc off of autoattacks. It seemed never to proc off Deadly Poison ticks. It seemed never to proc off Leeching Poison ticks. It seemed never to proc off Mutilate or Dispatch. It *may* have procced off of Envenom, and it almost certainly procced off Rupture ticks.

As the log link above will show, this was not an extensive series of highly compartmentalized tests; I basically just screwed around with stuff for half an hour just to see what would happen with various briefly employed approaches. But for me, in the particular gear/spec I was using, the trinket was not behaving the way it'd be expected to behave. Hopefully this is unique to this particular trinket and not true for other proc-based trinks.

Incidentally, I didn't remotely have a large body of evidence to work from here, but the shortest ICD I encountered in this poor series of tests was juuuust under one minute:

9/29 02:22:13.943 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0580000004760806,"Rfeann",0x511,0x0,0x0580000004760806,"Rfeann", 0x511,0x0,60233,"Agility",0x2,BUFF

9/29 02:23:13.776 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0580000004760806,"Rfeann",0x511,0x0,0x0580000004760806,"Rfeann", 0x511,0x0,60233,"Agility",0x2,BUFF

Yeah, the buff is called "Agility." Pretty sexy.

Last edited by Rfeann : 09/29/12 at 12:17 PM. Reason: update to mention hotfix note

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Old 10/02/12, 11:07 PM   #540
Rfeann
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Sentinels
So I may be developing an unhealthy obsession with the [Zen Alchemist Stone].

Did more smacking tonight, with the hope that server maintenance/restarts would allow the reported fix to kick in. This log suggests: not so much.

As before, I didn't test super-extensively or super-scientifically. Decked out in my typical logged-out Awesome Gear of Awesomeness (including overpowered [Sharpened Stilleto]s), I spent a few minutes trying each of a few relatively isolated tests as Assassination on a level 85 target dummy: autoattack only, Mutilate only, Mutilate + Blindside-enabled Dispatch only, autoattack + Deadly Poison only, autoattack + Leeching only, Mutilate + Envenom only, Mutilate + Rupture only, Mutilate + Recuperate only.

Of everything I listed above, the Stone procced only on Rupture ticks, Recuperate ticks, Dispatch and Envenom. Not autoattacks, not Mutilate, not DP, not Leeching.

The shortest time between procs appeared to be roughly 58-59 seconds, as seen here:

10/2 22:12:13.053 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0580000004760806,"Rfeann",0x511,0x0,0x0580000004760806,"Rfeann", 0x511,0x0,60233,"Agility",0x2,BUFF

10/2 22:13:11.786 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0580000004760806,"Rfeann",0x511,0x0,0x0580000004760806,"Rfeann", 0x511,0x0,60233,"Agility",0x2,BUFF

10/2 22:14:10.717 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0580000004760806,"Rfeann",0x511,0x0,0x0580000004760806,"Rfeann", 0x511,0x0,60233,"Agility",0x2,BUFF
Which would seem to support a 55s ICD -- though, again, please note how sloppy my testing approach is and how few procs took place during it overall.

That said, even during the Rupture/Recup part of my brief testing, there were times when I'd go upwards of two minutes without a proc. So assuming this experience isn't unique to me and my server, we're looking at a situation where the trinket in its current weird state is not providing remotely close to 100% of its proc potential. Since the proc delivers ~75% of the trinket's value, I could easily see it slipping to right around the bottom of the above trinket list at the moment, even with or lower than the i463 dungeon drops. (Edit to add: This is assuming it performs similarly on raid bosses to how it performs on target dummies.)

Would love to know if folks on other servers are experiencing the same issue, though.

Last edited by Rfeann : 10/02/12 at 11:31 PM.

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