Mists of Pandaria: All Specs - Page 7

Crevan · 02/16/12, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by darathis

the added benefit to leeching poison from shiv is a heal for 5% of your total health makes it even more attractive then elusiveness unless there is a fight requiring the use of a different poison.

Extra healing will not help you if you can't survive the hit in the first place. Just like Pancake said, we would use Leeching Poison on encounters with steady but non-lethal damage taken, and Elusiveness for when we have to survive a huge damage spike that could possibly kill us.

• Aldriana · 02/16/12, 2:56 PM

The problem with Elusiveness is that while it does help mitigate spikes... so does Cheat Death. If you're taking occasional large spikes, you'd rather have Cheat Death to guarantee you won't die. If you're taking regular smaller spikes, helping heal up after them is just as useful. Elusiveness mostly benefits when you're taking frequent large bursts of damage... and under most circumstances, if that's happening, you're doing something wrong. In recent content the only fight where Elusiveness strikes me as a notably strong option is Baleroc, for soaking crystals.

The other problem is that the removal of feint's cooldown implies that it will probably no longer be free. If that's the case, then Elusiveness will be the only survivability tool in its tier that has an opportunity cost to use, which further reduces its appeal.

Grailwatcher · 02/16/12, 4:19 PM

link to the "shiv changes" topic which Daxxarri is very active:
Shiv Changes - MMO-Champion BlueTracker

Q. For clarification, how exactly do active poisons work? One lethal, one utility, both with potential to proc from both weapons?
One Lethal, one Non-Lethal, and both poisons are effectively on both weapons. Whenever you land either a mainhand or off-hand strike, you have a chance to apply both your Lethal and Non-Lethal poison.

Q. How does poison proccing work now, and what does that mean for weapon speed.
Poison procs are largely unchanged, except, y’know, for all poisons being percentage-based in the future. We’re looking to get rid of the "fast 1.4 speed dagger" thing. The plan is for offhand daggers to just be daggers and interchangeable with main hand daggers. So we're anticipating Assassination and Subtlety rogues will use 1.8/1.8 daggers for the most part, while Combat will use a 2.6 main hand and a 1.8 offhand dagger. I know some of you noticed a Main Gauche change, and the intention isn’t a nerf. If it needs adjustment, it’s important to remember that numbers are still in flux.

On a separate note, while we don’t have an elegant system in place for it, we do know that a lot of Combat rogues want to at least have the appearance of dual wielding swords/axes/maces. There are a lot of hurdles, but maybe we’ll find a good way to deliver on that. No promises though! So, again, don’t get your hopes up too high.

Q. So, how about an offensive dispel using the shiv system (perhaps as an alternative to Mind Numbing)?
It's something we might consider, but if too many people have access to an effect like that, then magic buffs are increasingly devalued, and that causes all kinds of problems. For example, something like Hand of Protection is cool, but significantly less meaningful if too many classes out there can remove it with a button press. So, we'll think about it, but don't get your hopes up.

Much more info than just this. The speed change for daggers seems very interesting and could go a long way toward reducing the need for extra loot that noone else uses.

Flaer02 · 02/16/12, 6:34 PM

Another small tidbit

"Yes, this means that Enhancement shaman spells and rogue Poisons will crit for double damage."

Naquada · 02/16/12, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Kaivaxx

Originally Posted by Troelsen

Q: So does this mean that Poisons will still be on the Spell Crit table? In other words, Agility will still not affect their chance to crit?

A: No. Poisons crit chance will be based on your melee crit chance.

It's about time they made this change. :)

Source

95Cedric · 02/17/12, 1:01 AM

Shroud of Concealment might also be useful as a positioning tool. Like having all melee start off stacked and ready behind a boss. The tooltip doesn't specify how it will work if you are moving or as posted earlier will work like Shadowmeld and be dispelled if you or anyone else moves. Hopefully they expand on the tooltip wording.

sp00n · 02/17/12, 9:19 AM

So does this mean that Poisons will still be on the Spell Crit table? In other words, Agility will still not affect their chance to crit?
No. Poisons crit chance will be based on your melee crit chance.

Source

Well, together with the 200% crit damage modifyer, that's a pretty significant chance here. At least if you would apply this to the mechanic as it is now.
(As an example, in my latest Morchok kill as Mutilate I would've gained about 20% crit chance for poison attacks.)

Tinwhisker · 02/17/12, 10:14 AM

Instant Poison - Proc chance now a static 30%. Damage down to 368 (from 403).
Leeching Poison - Now has a 50% proc rate.
Paralytic Poison - Now has a 20% proc rate.
etc.

Poison procs are largely unchanged, except, y’know, for all poisons being percentage-based in the future. We’re looking to get rid of the "fast 1.4 speed dagger" thing. The plan is for offhand daggers to just be daggers and interchangeable with main hand daggers. So we're anticipating Assassination and Subtlety rogues will use 1.8/1.8 daggers for the most part

Wait, that doesn't really work does it? Doesn't making them proc off a flat percentage push faster daggers? Note the buffs to poisons - 200% damage/based of melee crit; making poisons more and more important pushes this even further. Did I miss something?

Probaton · 02/17/12, 10:19 AM

I'm getting the impression that they're solving the fast/slow dagger problem by simply removing fast daggers (they mentioned they'd want AssRogues to work with 1.8/1.8). As for Combat one can only presume that they're making Sinister Strike (and other purely MH attacks) strong enough to outweigh the lower proc rates.

GingerUrza · 02/17/12, 11:21 AM

Whilst we've not seen them yet, I imagine that some talents will be more useful for the smaller group end game content they're planning on introducing with Mists (Challenge Modes and Scenarios). Those niches, which we currently have no experience of and thus can't properly scope out, could be where some of the talents are more useful.

For example, imagine a group of 5 rogues using the following talents to speed through the challenge mode of an instance, skipping large pieces of trash and using huge burst to force their way through boss encounters:

1 designated tank combat rogue taking:

T1 - Nightstalker - speed us up through the timed runs
T2 - Combat Readiness - reduced incoming damage
T3 - Cheat Death - extra survivability
T4 - Prep - double evasion/CloS
T5 - Paralytic - extra stuns on trash if required - Note this tier of talents is the hardest to make useful outside solo play/PVP.
T6 - Versatility - for multi add encounters.

Using Shadow Walk to get right up close to the targets before the pull, plus all the other survival abilities as and when.

With the other 4 rogues using Tricks on Tank rogue taking:

T1 - Nightstalker - speed us up through the timed runs
T2 - Nerve Strike - keep tank incoming damage to minimum on trash
T3 - Leeching - healing for free
T4 - Shadowstep - speed for pull positioning plus useful for skipping trash packs.
T5 - A mix of all three for additional control, dependant on encounter mechanics, note poison may be useless with Leeching from T3
T6 - Anticipation - for burst and less stress on the rotation.

I could imagine a good group of rogues using something akin to the above could in theory post fast times on Challenge modes.

That said, I think the following talents are unlikely to see much in the way of usage across the board as the tiers stand:

T1 - Shadow Focus - If it was baked into Subterfuge it could be a bit too powerful, but Nightstalker and Subterfuge are likely to beat it every time.
T2 - Deadly Throw - Combat Readiness and Nerve Strike are likely to beat this, on the assumption now that CR is a talent it won't share a CD with CloS, although the control it provides may outweigh the survivability of the other two in PVP.
T3 - Elusiveness - In it's current form I don't see it competing with the regular heals of the poison or the OHPANTS! PHEW! of Cheat Death
T4 - Burst of Speed - this tier is just unbalanced, as PVP you're going to want both of the others every time, in PVE, Prep is just a lot more useful. Caveat is if there were mechanics asking you to sprint between two different ends of a room but the likelihood of that is slim to none.
T5 - This I think is solely a PVP tier, and fairly well balanced at that.
T6 - Shuriken Toss is unlikely to ever see use in this tier, and in fact unless it is handed out as a class ability, I doubt it will be used. I see Versatility as useful for multi add fights and PVP, where you can potentially bind it to tab, but Anticipation will be the runaway winner in this tier.

I may post later with my suggestions for improvements to the tiers to make things more balanced and to allow for more compelling choices.

gurglblAt · 02/17/12, 3:59 PM

When I look at the Tier 1 talent Subterfuge, my first thought as a PvE Assassination Rogue is '3 more seconds of Overkill!' Unfortunately by the wording of the tooltip, 'dealing or receiving hostile actions' it looks like Pre-potting and getting in a Garrote at the beginning of the fight will be mutually exclusive. That might be dealt with by taking Preparation in T4, for a quick restealth and 3 more seconds of Overkill. The point may be moot if Pre-potting does not activate Subterfuge.

kindath · 02/18/12, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by gurglblAt

When I look at the Tier 1 talent Subterfuge, my first thought as a PvE Assassination Rogue is '3 more seconds of Overkill!' Unfortunately by the wording of the tooltip, 'dealing or receiving hostile actions' it looks like Pre-potting and getting in a Garrote at the beginning of the fight will be mutually exclusive. That might be dealt with by taking Preparation in T4, for a quick restealth and 3 more seconds of Overkill. The point may be moot if Pre-potting does not activate Subterfuge.

How so?

Start out unstealthed -> Potion -> Stealth -> Open on boss

If you did have prep, it would be much better used to get an addition vanish, with an additional full duration of overkill.

In any case, an additional 3 seconds of overkill would only give you 9 more energy with base regen and not much more once you add haste. Shadow focus, on the other hand, saves you 45 energy from a zero cost garrote (though technically 35, because you'll spend the first GCD energy capped). The only reason subterfuge could possibly pull ahead is if ambush was significantly more damage than mutilate.

MassMan · 02/18/12, 12:00 PM

HaT+Premeditation+Anticipation= 5 anticipation charges = 10 combopoints from pull?

Xaoc · 02/18/12, 1:09 PM

Anticipation specifically states "... attacks that generate combo points ...", so I don't think it will work like that.

lairpie · 02/19/12, 11:53 AM

Scenarios and Challenge Modes
Whilst we've not seen them yet, I imagine that some talents will be more useful for the smaller group end game content they're planning on introducing with Mists (Challenge Modes and Scenarios). Those niches, which we currently have no experience of and thus can't properly scope out, could be where some of the talents are more useful.

For example, imagine a group of 5 rogues using the following talents to speed through the challenge mode of an instance, skipping large pieces of trash and using huge burst to force their way through boss encounters:

From what we've seen in interviews the challenge modes are just harder, timed versions of real instances requiring a tank, healer, 3 dps sort of setup. While there may be some fluke of one that is doable with 5 rogues, that's far from the intent, and unlikely, especially since the way the gear scales down for them would help prevent any sort of dodge stacking rogue gear setup that relied a bit on overgearing it.

The scenarios are however designed to be doable with any given group makeup, and having a damager that was a bit more 'tanky' might be nice.