Rogue Simple Questions: Mists Edition - Page 2

dizzlex · 09/05/12, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by kindath

Yes. In fact, you're less likely to waste combo points now than before patch, given that mutilate lost 15% crit and backstab/dispatch lost 30%.

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, I meant that envenoming at 4 below 35% is worse than thechance to waste a combo point (which is lower than before the patch) by dispatching to 5. And similarly, if you have 4cp and a dispatch proc, it's usually worthwhile to dispatch for the 5th before envenoming.

I certainly appreciate someone finally bringing up these fringe scenarios regarding dispatch usage at 4+ combo points, these are the things that drive me ABSOLUTELY insane, until I know the correct answer.

Are we 100% sure that a dispatch should be used from 4 to 5 pts to get a 5pt envenom off? Are we taking into consideration the fact that the free dispatch after the envenom can be used to keep the envenom debuff uptime higher by allowing faster combo building on our next envenom?

I am no expert, and I certainly don't claim to know the right answer, but I would appreciate more than just a post on the forums saying this is right and this is wrong without some kind of mathematical or simulation based evidence. With that being said, while I certainly am not lacking in curiosity about these scenarios, I don't possess the math or simulation skills to determine a proper answer.

Can anyone give some solid feed back on these types of scenarios yet?

Wytryszek · 09/06/12, 8:18 AM

Originally Posted by Furtim

[Cataclysmic Gladiator's Insignia of Conquest] does indeed have a 55 second ICD, and most of the time I have around 36% uptime with it.

These trinkets are not unique. Is it possible to carry 2, or do they share their proc cooldown or something like that?

diodiablo · 09/06/12, 8:29 AM

Originally Posted by Wytryszek

These trinkets are not unique. Is it possible to carry 2, or do they share their proc cooldown or something like that?

If I remember correctly, the same kind of trinket share the same cooldown, I'm not sure if the internal cd behaves in the same way, but it's reasonable, since the effect name is the same.

kindath · 09/06/12, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by dizzlex

I certainly appreciate someone finally bringing up these fringe scenarios regarding dispatch usage at 4+ combo points, these are the things that drive me ABSOLUTELY insane, until I know the correct answer.

Are we 100% sure that a dispatch should be used from 4 to 5 pts to get a 5pt envenom off? Are we taking into consideration the fact that the free dispatch after the envenom can be used to keep the envenom debuff uptime higher by allowing faster combo building on our next envenom?

I am no expert, and I certainly don't claim to know the right answer, but I would appreciate more than just a post on the forums saying this is right and this is wrong without some kind of mathematical or simulation based evidence. With that being said, while I certainly am not lacking in curiosity about these scenarios, I don't possess the math or simulation skills to determine a proper answer.

Can anyone give some solid feed back on these types of scenarios yet?

I am basing my response mainly on the fact that 5 cp envenoms were optimal during backstab phase before the patch, and you're 30% less likely to waste a CP than you were before.

However, the argument has merit beyond that. If you're at 4cp with a dispatch proc, dispatching to 5 will make the following envenom buff last 1 second longer, and makes the envenom do ~20% more damage.
By contrast, saving it until after the envenom will get envenom buff up 1 second faster and start you off with ~1.4 cp towards your next, but that could lead to forcing another 4 point envenom.

I don't know for certain, but the envenom uptime seems more or less the same, (applied 1 second earlier vs 1 second longer duration to build up to the next), but 5pt envenoms give greater damage.

kindath · 09/06/12, 6:03 PM

Originally Posted by diodiablo

If I remember correctly, the same kind of trinket share the same cooldown, I'm not sure if the internal cd behaves in the same way, but it's reasonable, since the effect name is the same.

Just checked with two of these on the combat dummy, no double procs and the closest time between procs was about 55 seconds. I can say fairly conclusively that they share an ICD.

You may be able to use one of these and one Ruthless Insignia, but a pve trinket is probably better than that option.

Trymore · 09/08/12, 8:41 AM

Is haste so valuable stat if Combat Potency generated by OH attacks is now PPM? And Main Gauche has always 20% proc chance, so I think mastery will be more (or equal) than haste now, or am I wrong?

Squirl · 09/08/12, 9:32 AM

This is a bit of a general question, but what is the relationship of EP and DPS? EP != DPS, correct? How are EP values converted to theoretical DPS? Hopefully this only requires a simple answer.

Elofax · 09/08/12, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Trymore

Is haste so valuable stat if Combat Potency generated by OH attacks is now PPM? And Main Gauche has always 20% proc chance, so I think mastery will be more (or equal) than haste now, or am I wrong?

The chance to proc a PPM effect is determined by the base weapon speed (i.e. as if haste were zero), not by your actual attack speed after applying haste, Slice and Dice, etc.; more haste thus results in more procs.

Docrev · 09/08/12, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by Squirl

This is a bit of a general question, but what is the relationship of EP and DPS? EP != DPS, correct? How are EP values converted to theoretical DPS? Hopefully this only requires a simple answer.

An increase of 1 EP is equivalent to an increase in DPS granted by 1 AP.

Squirl · 09/09/12, 8:29 AM

Originally Posted by Docrev

An increase of 1 EP is equivalent to an increase in DPS granted by 1 AP.

How is the increase in DPS of an increase of 1 AP determined? This is the question I was trying to get at, and a simple answer is probably not what I'm looking for, so I'll ask this instead: is there a resource I can look at that explains how the increase in DPS of an increase of 1 AP is determined?

Pathal · 09/09/12, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Squirl

How is the increase in DPS of an increase of 1 AP determined? This is the question I was trying to get at, and a simple answer is probably not what I'm looking for, so I'll ask this instead: is there a resource I can look at that explains how the increase in DPS of an increase of 1 AP is determined?

https://github.com/dazer/ShadowCraft..._init__.py#L91

We measure the change in DPS that results from adding a point of a stat (certain capable stats aside), and compare it to the change in DPS from a point of AP. Some stats work the opposite way.

urona · 09/10/12, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Thanator94

Well after further analysis and switching back and forth I can say that the proc rate for the Shadow of the Destroyer in Subtlety remains much lower than when in Assassination spec. I read through numerous World of Logs for different guilds and rogues and found that the performance I am personally seeing between Assassination and Subtlety is consistent to theirs

It appears that Assassination is getting a stack of Shadow of the Destroyer every 0.8 - 0.9 seconds; Subtlety at about eevery 1.2 - 1.4 seconds; and Combat somewhere around 1.6 - 1.8 seconds. As someone mentioned earlier as a theory... it appears the changes to Deadly Poison is the driver here. In fact when I looked at World of Log reports for AoE heavy fights the frequency of stacks for Shadow of the Destoyer went to rediculious levels for Assassination rogues thanks to multiple stacks for each cast of FoK or Crimson Tempest.

Which leads to a very disturbing observation. Numerous of the "best" guild's rogues are still running Dragon Soul as Combat spec with the Legendary daggers. Why? Everything i have seen in testing and using SimulationCraft shows Combat with the daggers at least 20% behind assassination and 10-15% behind subtlety.

Am i missing something where Combat with legendary daggers is actually still the best choice?

Never under estimate the sticking to an habit, even a bad one.

By now, people know there raid mechanic and play it on an auto pilot, switching to a new spec and practicing this new spec mechanic for the next two week on old bosses can be one of the reasons.

I switch to Assassin and never looked back, I do missed Blade Flurry but by now the other dps classes in the raid group can cope with adds/trash very easily.

I only wish the game could allow 3rd spec since I mostly miss the Sub spec with all of its relative complexity and burst of power in PvE. As I see it right now, Assassin/Combat be the default choices for the mist patch.

Urona (of English as 2nd Language)

Druss · 09/11/12, 8:58 AM

Originally Posted by urona

I only wish the game could allow 3rd spec since I mostly miss the Sub spec with all of its relative complexity and burst of power in PvE. As I see it right now, Assassin/Combat be the default choices for the mist patch.

Urona (of English as 2nd Language)

Don't be so quick to write Sub off as a PvE spec!

I played Sub/Combat pre 5.0 and have since tested Assass and Sub with heavy mastery reforge that you'd in general assume is of greater benefit to Assass. This is anecdotal but, despite keeping the same reforging, Sub damage is rivaling if not exceeding Assassination principally because of the buffs to Evis....especially with legendaries and heavy mastery. Sub is putting out incredible damage during Fury of the Destroyer with the the FW debuff on.

More testing is needed obviously but I retain high hopes for Sub as a viable PvE spec. Obviously level 90 might change all this but certain, for now at least, Sub is still excellent in pve even with the new changes.

urona · 09/11/12, 11:19 AM

Thats good news regarding Sub... I agree more testing are needed especially when we need to replace the current Legendary daggers to the "normal" type and we won't be able to count on the proc. As for the mechanic of these two spec, if Assassin still be the easiest of the three and Sub is the hardest, people will take that also into account and may prefer a bit lower DPS.

Urona

Dolors · 09/23/12, 5:54 PM

Is troll still the best Horde race when considering DPS min/maxing or has it changed to pandaren/undead?