Assassination from the Mists - Page 14

Khazilein · 12/10/12, 6:28 AM

Originally Posted by wullull

I have two more questions,

In a scenario where I proc blindsight and I'm sitting with 5 CP, shall I use dispatch before I envenom?

If I got everything right, if I have enough energy I should envenom to maximize the uptime on the buff, but if I am starved on energy I should just use the dispatch and then envenom. Except for if my anticipation has 4 or 5 stacks, in that case I will hold on and dispatch after envenom.

Correct?

The second thing I want confirmed is that when using shadow blades, I should not vanish during the duration of it right? I should rather wait untill it runs out and use vanish with vendetta only.

Use envenom first then dispatch. So the dispatch got a higher poison proc chance and you won't risk wasting CPs.
If you are low at energy you just have to pool enough of it, before doing so. (80+) This may cause your dispath procc to fade, so in that case envenom earlier to maximize your buff uptime.

I found that using the free mutilate from the vanish and the free CPs you gain through shadow blades is much more preferable than wanting to avoid a reset of your swingtimer. So try to vanish during shadowblades+vendetta, better during shadowblades+vendetta+envenom for more poison proccs on the free mutilate/dispatch.

zang1983 · 12/11/12, 3:22 PM

What's the most optimal aoe dps rotation as assi? Like on Wind Lord?

Apicoplast · 12/11/12, 4:27 PM

Hey, im wondering how much im supposed to deal damage on rather steady fight like imperial vizier zor'lok (normal)? Since im not getting anywhere near what shadowcraft is showing (99k). (and I know shadowcraft "fight" and imperial vizier fight arent directly comparable, but just for an example.)

My current ilvl is 491. I feel like im following the rotation nearly perfectly, I mean rupture uptime over 90% depending on fight, pooling before every envenom and so on. Still i dont see my dps over 80k at end of a fight too often. I know this doesnt offer too much information, but all raid buffs etc. shouldnt be the issue.
EDIT: added shadowcraft dps.

Boarlord · 12/11/12, 7:28 PM

I believe you should only be pooling at time's where you have gotten 5 cp up very quickly and would be clipping your previous envenom.

Apicoplast · 12/11/12, 9:00 PM

Originally Posted by Boarlord

I believe you should only be pooling at time's where you have gotten 5 cp up very quickly and would be clipping your previous envenom.

Doesnt make too much difference, atleast on dummy.

tmedic01 · 12/12/12, 9:57 AM

So, I've been persuaded to come here and share my theory on high sustained DPS, and what I've been testing out on my rogue. I have a iLvl of 491, and you can feel free to check out my armory for my stats,

Now, most of the other assassination rogues that I've spoken too on my server have said that they still feel "energy-starved" most of the time. After playing around, and doing some math, I've come up with a 'rotation" or guidelines that has increased my DPS by 10k, roundabouts.

I am more than willing to post logs, meters, invite for alliance to show this as well. It's not so much in rotation, as it is strong energy management. Here's what I do.

Standard Opening Sequence, and SND/Rupture Uptimes. Mutilate ONLY when you have 85+ Energy, Use 4 point Finishers, unless you have a free Dispatch. Once at 35%, switch to Dispatch, and use 5 CP Finishers.

Line of reasoning, With Muti at 85+ energy, once you get 4 CP, you're immediately available to Envenom. Now, Current school of thought says to Pool energy before the envenom, so you can get Mutis in, however, I find with the 4 CP finishers, you can keep a higher uptime on Envenom, which thus increases your passive instant deadly poison.

This play style is a bit different, and frankly, boring to play at first, because it's very controlled. It will feel as if you're just standing there doing nothing, however, once you start using this EM(Energy Management), it starts to become second nature. Like I said, I'm more than willing to post logs or answer questions.

Recap:
Stnd Opener, Muti if 85+ Energy, 4CP Finisher, unless Free Dispatch, If <35%, Dispatch, 5CP Finishers.

metzli · 12/12/12, 10:40 AM

Can you post some logs on this? I'd like to see if your envenom uptime is actually better or not than mine. And how many fewer mutilates that gives you over the fight.

Edit: I looked up a few of your logs through wow-heroes and your envenom uptime for the most part is mediocre at best. You lose DPE on envenom by doing 4 CP envenoms, as well as have less uptime per finisher. So the only way it'd be remotely viable to do the rotation your way is if you managed to get your envenom uptime way higher than the conventional rotation, which is not the case.

I will grant you that the whole "pool to 80 before envenom" idea is just wrong, it was meant for cata, but pooling a bit before envenom is right, it is just a much smaller number than that.

Schmoopy · 12/12/12, 10:54 AM

Why with anticipation would you want to 4 point envenom? I am trying to wrap my head around the logic and this is the best I can get:
With 5 point envenoms, 20 combo points gets you 4 finishers and 24 seconds of envenom uptime (1 + 5 sec each).
With 4 point envenoms, 20 combo points gets you 5 finishers and 25 seconds of envenom uptime (1 + 4 sec each).

So the extra damage from that 5th finisher at 4 combo points plus the extra second of envenom uptime has to be worth more dps than:
The damage lost on the first 4 finishers which were done at 4 pts rather than 5.
The dps value of the extra energy used in casting an extra finisher.

I find this hard to believe, but do not have the tools to investigate further at work. However, if this is the case then why at < 35% would you stop doing 4 pt finishers. It doesn't seem to matter what your combo point generator is in this scenario.

Minor pet peeve: Why make the statement that you are willing to post logs rather than doing so from the start?

Edit: Metzli beat me to the punch on this one. Can you share the logs you found metzli? I'd like to take a look as well. Nvm found em.

• Aldriana · 12/12/12, 12:51 PM

Just to clear up a bit of misinformation that seems to circulate around the forums: there is no inherent benefit to pooling. Pooling to 85 energy (or any other amount short of cap) before you Mutilate is 100% equivalent to Mutilating the second you have enough energy for the move. There is no magic level of energy that you want to always pool to.

The advantage of pooling is and always has been that it allows you to adjust the timing on your moves to be more advantageous. The benefit is entirely in terms of increasing Envenom uptime by spacing them out more, spending more energy while you have cooldowns or other buffs up, minimizing rupture downtime, and so on.

Hence, advise like "if your previous envenom has not dropped wait until it does or until your energy is in danger of capping before casting the next one" will increase DPS. Advice like "go into Shadow Blades/Vendetta with high (but uncapped) energy" will increase your DPS. Advice like "try to have enough energy that you will be able to cast two Mutilates during the buff before casting Envenom" will increase your DPS. But any recommendation of the form "always pool to X energy before casting Y" is going to be wrong.

I will also note, for the record, that there is nothing you can do to optimize your cycle that will increase your DPS by 10k unless you were doing things wrong to start with. That is: while the generally recommended cycle on these forums may not be perfect, its provably not 10k worse than perfect. If you're seeing a 10k improvement purely through cycle adjustments you've made, one of two things is happening:
1) RNG
2) You're better at playing your "new" cycle than you were the old one, such that you're letting energy/CP cap less, wasting less energy/CP, etc.

metzli · 12/12/12, 3:32 PM

Originally Posted by zang1983

What's the most optimal aoe dps rotation as assi? Like on Wind Lord?

As far as an optimal long duration AoE rotation goes, what I have found to be very effective is essentially our normal rotation, but using FoK as a builder and maintaining 2-3 ruptures (depending on your ability to do so) while getting as much envenom uptime as you can manage. Maintaining a minimum of 2 ruptures takes priority over envenom uptime. Though someone with more testing / logs on how valid 2 ruptures VS more envenoms for AoE is would be helpful.

Obviously if you are switching this much, you should have a plan as to how to carry out any primary duties you may have (such as kicking, CC'ing, etc.).

theherecy · 12/13/12, 8:46 PM

Hey, my first post here so cut me some nooby slack!

So, one thing I noticed is that when you get parried/dodged your CP and energy is refunded, normally annoying. But when you envenom it still applies the buff and you keep all the CP, although the 25k hit doesn't get applied.

This seems really, really strong for maximizing DPS. My question is:

a) has this been factored into the EP values
b) does reforging away from expertise pay off when considering reduced poison application and free dispatch misses, etc.

I mean frankly it's like it gives you free CP and I have begun to reforge away from exp where possible (bearing in mind mastery is higher anyway so it's not important to cap)

Thanks for the help in this thread.

snowman2050 · 12/14/12, 5:42 AM

In response to your questions:

a) Yes, but be aware that EP values do fluctuate with gear, in one instance you may find Expertise just behind Mastery, in another instance you may find it below Haste. The best way for you to keep track is by using Shadowcraft, having a quick look at your profile puts Expertise in your current gear set at 0.98, which is lower than Haste.

b) In certain conditions yes, my advice would be to follow Shadowcraft as stated above.

Krii_ · 12/14/12, 5:48 AM

But remember that when your Dispatch from proc is dodged, proc is gone and u got no dmg from this, same thing with your hit from Stealth, u just lose energyfree hit

bural · 12/14/12, 12:56 PM

I'm wondering if someone have any non-anecdotal information to offer regarding the optimal assassination aoe rotation e.g. a Wind Lord p1 situation? Reading through this thread the question appears to have come up a few times without any conclusive answer being offered (e.g. #33 and #197 to name a few). Some suggest maintaining Rupture on your main target with Envenom in between, naturally with FoK as the combo builder. Others suggest tab-rupturing and only using Envenom to keep SnD running. I have tried modeling it through the multitarget options in Simulationcraft, but I'm yet to make it work. I have outlined my napkin-math understanding of the situation below. However, although perhaps better suited for another thread, I feel the answer may have been obvious to Shadowcraft users, if the other fantastic tool offered a tab with ability breakdowns at the imported gear level.

Right, so unless I'm missing something the choice between Envenom and Rupture comes down to a trade-off between on one hand (A) Envenom damage + (for lack of a better description) Instant Deadly Poison damage from auto attacks and combo builders and on the other hand (B) Rupture damage + Venomous Wounds damage + damage from additional FoKs. Let's say we're discussing a template with 35k AP, 28% Potent Poisons and 1.58 base attack speed.

Hence, (A) can be calculated as (Envenom damage)+(additional Instant Deadly Poison procs on combo builders)+(additional Instant Deadly Poison procs on combo builders) or respectively: (0.56*35k+2000)*1.28 + 5 foks/finisher *0.15*(390+0.109*35k)*1.28 + 6sec*2*(1/(1.58*(1-0.4)))*0.15*(390+0.109*35k)*1.28 or 27648 + 4036.8/target + 10219.7.

Meanwhile, (B) can be calculated as (Rupture damage)+(Venomous Wounds damage)+((energy gain from rupture / FoK cost)*(damage per FoK + Instant Deadly Poison procs on those FoKs) or respectively: 4692+74.4*35k + 12ticks*0.75*(685+0.16*35k)*1.28 + (12*0.75*10energy/35energy per FoK)*((1246+0.14*35k) + 0.3*(390+0.109*35k)*1.28) or 26732 + 72403 + 19956/target

As (B) appears massively superior, I was surprised (A) was anecdotally suggested as the better way to go and while trying it last night it felt reasonable. Hence I have to ask if I'm missing something or if perhaps Shadowcraft can offer some insights possibly even related to the optimal Rupture size?

edit: notice the 2 piece Assassination bonus isn't factored in - this would skew the result futher in favor of (B)
edit2: edited for clarity, but as I can't seem to get the latex formating to work (neither $$ or \begin{}\end{} wraps appear to be working - what am I doing wrong?), it's somewhat difficult to make it super illustrative.

Grimwolf · 12/14/12, 10:21 PM

That's a lot of numbers, and sorry that I can't follow it precisely. Did you include the energy gained from maintaining rupture on 3 or more targets in your calculations?