Assassination from the Mists - Page 15

Demeia · 12/15/12, 6:32 PM

Metzli: Are you talking about 5 point ruptures or a lesser number?

Our AoE is sure wonky right now; I really wonder what bliz was thinking here. Would love some more clarity on this subject.

bural · 12/16/12, 3:30 AM

Originally Posted by Grimwolf

Did you include the energy gained from maintaining rupture on 3 or more targets in your calculations?

No, I'm comparing the effects of one envenom to one rupture. If it's favorable on a one-to-one basis it's also favorable on a 3-to-one basis. This is not to say maintaining multible ruptures isn't optimal. It probably is, I just want to verify rupture should take priority over envenom first.
However, your question then becomes a normative question of how much, i.e. what is optimal rupture size for a given number of targets. Interestingly, the energy return per building cost for a low cp rupture is higher than for a 5cp rupture. Hence, low cp ruptures should become incrasingly favorable as the number of aoe targets increases.

metzli · 12/16/12, 6:49 AM

Demeia: I use 3-4 point ruptures.

And Bural: The problem becomes that you are unable to keep up multiple ruptures with 1 point ruptures. If you tried to do this you'd be in the rotation FoK > rupture ad infinitum (8 seconds for a 1 point. Takes at least 2 seconds to apply each rupture. Thus you get at best 6 seconds of overlap, with 4 GCD's to do other things before you are applying rupture again, at best).

You are also unable to keep up more than 2 very easily, so trying to do the math for 4+ is pointless, as it just isn't possible to maintain.
Just as a side note: It may become a lot easier to maintain the 3 rupture rotation as more haste is on your gear as well.

So there are basically 3 different AoE rotations that we need math for. 1 rupture, 2 ruptures and 3 ruptures. They all play exactly the same other than how many ruptures you are maintaining, which is directly proportional to how many envenoms you can do. I am fairly positive that maintaining your SND with an envenom is more important than ruptures (though I'd like to see if for aoe dps rupture energy return is > SnD damage IE is 1-2 rupture ticks + energy > the ASPD/poison procs from snd for 2-4 seconds).

The number of points you are rupturing with should be determined by how many seconds you need on each rupture to allow for at least one envenom before you begin refreshing ruptures (refresh SND). We already have math saying the DPE for rupture is higher the less builders you use to cast it.

I hope this helps clear up some of the confusion for the people better at math than I.

bural · 12/16/12, 8:41 AM

Originally Posted by metzli

And Bural: The problem becomes that you are unable to keep up multiple ruptures with 1 point ruptures.
I am fairly positive that maintaining your SND with an envenom is more important than ruptures.

Indeed, I was merely trying to point out smaller ruptures would be increasingly favorable as the math above was done with a 5cp rupture. I'll edit it for the sake of clarity. For me the real interesting question is when the 5cp ruptures of the single target rotation should be swapped for the X number of smaller tab ruptures.

As for your second point: naturally, and the description preceding the math states snd is refreshed with envenom - that was never really up for discussion. What I was contending was the anecdotal reports that the extra poison damage from envenom made envenoming superior to rupture in aoe situations. Such an aoe rotation is in line with the one described in the first post guide as

Originally Posted by snowman2050

This is still up for debate, the current idea is to use your standard rotation but replace Fan of Knives as you CP builder.

Originally Posted by metzli

though I'd like to see if for aoe dps rupture energy return is > SnD damage IE is 1-2 rupture ticks + energy > the ASPD/poison procs from snd for 2-4 seconds.

While interesting, it is probably only applicable to the pack just before stone guards.

metzli · 12/16/12, 9:09 AM

Originally Posted by bural

While interesting, it is probably only applicable to the pack just before stone guards.

I was more aiming for specific situations. As in say we do the math and find that maintaining 2 ruptures is optimal. If you are in a situation where 1 rupture is about to fall, and snd is about to fall, which takes priority in aoe to refresh. I'm fairly sure SND is the victor here, but in a very low envenom uptime rotation it may be a bit closer than in our normal rotation.

Castagir · 12/16/12, 10:04 AM

I guess this is still all about a high sustained AoE dmg in such a fight like against wind lord mel'jarak. I would also be interested in building as much AoE dmg as fast as possible for instance in Challenge Modes. I still haven't figured out how to accomplish this the most effectiv way (or at least i think i haven't).
I would also like to know how many enemys i would at least need so that FoK is more effectiv than attacking single targets. and would it then be better to spred rapture at more than one target?

bural · 12/17/12, 6:15 AM

Originally Posted by metzli

So there are basically 3 different AoE rotations that we need math for. 1 rupture, 2 ruptures and 3 ruptures. They all play exactly the same other than how many ruptures you are maintaining, which is directly proportional to how many envenoms you can do. I am fairly positive that maintaining your SND with an envenom is more important than ruptures (though I'd like to see if for aoe dps rupture energy return is > SnD damage IE is 1-2 rupture ticks + energy > the ASPD/poison procs from snd for 2-4 seconds).

This is basically how I tried simulating it in Simulationcraft, but as I'm not having much luck changing the actionlist to account for multible targets, I thought I'd mention it so other people can have a go. I know it supports damage to multible enemies, the problem is setting up an actionlist that mimics tab-rupturing reasonably well. In the meantime, I'll see if I can drum up some math when I get home.

Druss · 12/17/12, 8:01 AM

I'd be interested to hear the theorycraft on multiple ruptures and FoK but my own practical experience from challenge mode AoE (and Windlord) is that trying to maintain more than 2 ruptures of 3-4 CPs is difficult unless Shadow Blades is up. It seems better to get 2 ruptures going and then stack 5 CPs, pool energy, envenom then FoK like crazy before rotating back to rupture maintenance. If you add another rupture it gets harder to take advantage of a decent envenom following by a pooled energy FoKfest (and this is where the DPS goes completely mental). Add to this that you are likely needing to interrupt a lot of the time and the practical conclusion tends towards not trying to lay on too many ruptures.

In any event for Windlord you want 4/5 Anticipation and an immediate switch to him in the 600% damage phase with full energy to take full advantage of the window for obscene damage. Anyone know if in that fight (Windlord HC) our ruptures and VW can continue to tick at the increased damage level so long as applied before it ends?

Astraar · 12/17/12, 10:18 AM

[20:35:56.348] Wind Lord Mel'jarak gains Recklessness from The Zar'thik
[20:35:56.935] Astraar casts Rupture on Wind Lord Mel'jarak
[20:35:57.190] Wind Lord Mel'jarak afflicted by Rupture from Astraar
[20:35:59.197] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 36241
[20:35:59.987] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak *518572*
[20:36:01.159] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 36241
[20:36:01.616] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak 251734
[20:36:03.168] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 36242
[20:36:03.629] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak 251735
[20:36:05.176] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 36242
[20:36:05.681] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak 251734
[20:36:07.181] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 36241
[20:36:07.669] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak 251734
[20:36:09.182] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 36241
[20:36:09.640] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak 287234
[20:36:11.176] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 36241
[20:36:13.159] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak *74658*
[20:36:13.664] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak 271777
[20:36:15.170] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 36241
[20:36:15.671] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak *559861*
[20:36:17.176] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak *74658*
[20:36:17.719] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak *559861*
[20:36:18.010] Astraar casts Rupture on Wind Lord Mel'jarak
[20:36:18.120] Wind Lord Mel'jarak's Rupture is refreshed by Astraar
[20:36:19.172] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 49036
[20:36:19.717] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak 287234
[20:36:21.159] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 49036
[20:36:21.724] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak 287234
[20:36:23.170] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 49036
[20:36:25.172] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 47151
[20:36:25.768] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak 249781
[20:36:26.339] The Zar'thik's Recklessness fades from Wind Lord Mel'jarak
[20:36:27.166] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak *13876*
[20:36:27.784] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak 35683
[20:36:29.158] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak *11100*
[20:36:29.789] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak 24489
[20:36:31.169] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 5604
[20:36:33.161] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 5604
[20:36:33.804] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak 22723
[20:36:35.151] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 5604
[20:36:35.835] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak *46809*
[20:36:37.169] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 5604
[20:36:37.856] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak 22723
[20:36:39.180] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 5604
[20:36:39.853] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak 22723
[20:36:41.187] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak 5604
[20:36:41.884] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak *46809*
[20:36:43.171] Astraar Rupture Wind Lord Mel'jarak *11545*
[20:36:43.171] Astraar's Rupture fades from Wind Lord Mel'jarak
[20:36:43.897] Astraar Venomous Wound Wind Lord Mel'jarak 22723

Something like this?

EDIT: Added VW

metzli · 12/17/12, 12:37 PM

I'd say that shows pretty clearly that it does not keep the buff from recklessness. So Idealy you want to have rupture up prior to him gaining the buff, and refresh it only once during the phase.

nordveien · 12/19/12, 5:27 AM

Maybe this (though quite obvious) would be helpful to rogues who are better familiar with Combat and are only learning Assassination:

Vendetta doesn't act similar to the Insight mechanics, in the sense that if you apply Rupture during Vendetta, then only the part of Rupture covered by the remaining Vendetta duration would do increased damage. This is likely because Insight is a player buff, and Vendetta is a target debuff.

Eisbrecher · 12/21/12, 5:45 AM

What are people's thoughts regarding using Shadowblades on cd for Assassination? Like generally for me I've been attempting to save it for below 35% and using Shadowblades at the start of a fight for initial burst, however I do find using Vendetta on cd almost necessary if you're able to get the full duration out of it. (Not sure if this has already been discussed).

Schmoopy · 12/21/12, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by Eisbrecher

What are people's thoughts regarding using Shadowblades on cd for Assassination? Like generally for me I've been attempting to save it for below 35% and using Shadowblades at the start of a fight for initial burst, however I do find using Vendetta on cd almost necessary if you're able to get the full duration out of it. (Not sure if this has already been discussed).

Depends on fight length. If unknown, I would use on CD and hope you can get an extra usage out of it by doing so. If you know exactly how long fight will be then try to time with Vendetta or other major CDs.

Example: in a fight less than 6 min due to enrage lets say, you are only going to get 2 uses of it. So I would use at start with Vendetta and then again at around 4 min when both SB and Vendetta are off CD.

jAsOs · 12/21/12, 1:43 PM

Cooldown usage is highly dependent on fight duration.
General rule of thumb is to use it in a fight as often as possible. You can hold off cds for a minute or so, as long as it does not reduce the number of times you get to use it.

Fights generally take 4-7 minutes, which guarantees you 2 shadowblades if not 3.

Nuyi · 01/04/13, 4:49 AM

This also higly depends on the need of burst on a fight to be honest. Let's take Sha of Fear as an example, while progressing on this fight I tended to keep at least one cooldown available to use on the platforms. Other then that I ussually do what the guys state above, see how long a fight lasts and see if it's efficient to hold SB available untill your Vendetta comes off cooldown.