The Art of Combat (Version 1) - Page 2

MeckieH · 10/02/12, 2:16 PM

Originally Posted by androxoid

According to these weights 2 haste seems a lot stronger than 1 agi, so does that mean I should gem agi/haste in red and pure haste in yellow sockets?
And would that make Blacksmithing the strongest profession for Combat?

I would really like some clarification on this aswell. Absolutely none of the rogues in the top-guilds (I checked vodka/Method/Envy) have opted to gem 320 haste, but given the EP-values listed in this thread, 320 haste obviously comes out ahead.

Rfeann · 10/02/12, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by Emelious

How does [Bottle of Infinite Stars] have such a high ep value with a 45 sec icd and the stat weights of 2.77 for agi and 1.1867 for mastery? For me it's coming out to 4406.23

Ignore the BNet/Wowhead/WowDB tooltips; they're not correct. See post #6 in the Assassination thread.

phup · 10/02/12, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by MeckieH

I would really like some clarification on this aswell. Absolutely none of the rogues in the top-guilds (I checked vodka/Method/Envy) have opted to gem 320 haste, but given the EP-values listed in this thread, 320 haste obviously comes out ahead.

I am assuming the stat weights in the guide are with the current best guess for BIS gear. If I run a BIS rogue through simcraft, the stat weights are very much in line with what the guide has. However, if I run my 459 item level rogue through simcraft, agility is way stronger than the secondary stats (have yet to fix my gems though, luckily they're pretty cheap right now).

In fact, haste/crit/mastery are lower than AP for me at this point, making strength enchants stronger than the equivalent haste enchant, but I can't make myself go that far for min/max (the difference is small).

So assuming the sims are close to the truth, it will take a fair amount of gear upgrades before the secondary stat gems are clearly better than the agility gems, and right now, for someone in blues, agility gems are far superior.

goongoon17 · 10/03/12, 12:01 AM

can anyone clarify the difference between the use of 1.8 dagger and 2.6 sword/axe/mace/fists on OH?

I know that the KS damage would be better off with dual wielding 2.6s, but energy generation from combat potency kinda confuses me.

On the energy generation, since 2.6s have slower atk speed but better proc, they're really supposed to be the same, but is it really?

psypher · 10/04/12, 3:26 PM

So after trying to figure out why I am such a trash can rogue pulling sub par dps I analyzed all the top rogue parses from the raids. None of the combat spec rogues doing great dps use rupture at all. That should be removed from the rotation in this guide.

thanks

phup · 10/04/12, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by psypher

So after trying to figure out why I am such a trash can rogue pulling sub par dps I analyzed all the top rogue parses from the raids. None of the combat spec rogues doing great dps use rupture at all. That should be removed from the rotation in this guide.

thanks

I'm not sure if that qualifies as a terrible post, but here's a reply anyway.

If you are looking at Stone Guard parses, that is a blade flurry fight and you don't use rupture, since it doesn't benefit from bf. I looked at the top few combat parses in WoL on the next 3 fights and they almost all used rupture (10 out of 12), ranging from 30% to 75% up-time.

And even if nobody was using it, it doesn't change the fact that if used optimally, it is a small dps increase.

That said, if I sim my rogue, adding rupture to a rupture-less rotation increases the dps by only 1.2%. So if it's simpler and easier for you to just use eviscerate, you are not losing much from the theoretical max (and it may actually help you a little, if trying to keep up with rupture was distracting you from doing other things properly)

Rfeann · 10/04/12, 4:07 PM

1) The use of Rupture will not have an overwhelming impact on your DPS either way. If a person was playing a rogue badly with Rupture, they'll still be playing it badly without it.

2) This guide is -- heck, virtually any guide is -- intended to provide a sense of what a person *should* be doing, not what other people *are* doing. If Rupture is mathematically a DPS gain, then it's mathematically a DPS gain regardless of whether top-performing rogues in top-progression guilds raiding during the first week of MSV have elected to use it.

3) There can be any number of reasons why, in the first week of a raid tier, people choose not to use a particular ability or rotation (or spec, for that matter). Theorycrafting isn't necessarily complete or conclusive on a wide range of issues yet, and inertia is a powerful force.

4) The top Combat parse for Feng at the moment was posted by a Rupture-weaving rogue. So your use of "all" is probably an overstatement.

I haven't seen any evidence in this thread or others to suggest that the Rupture recommendation is wrong. I suppose it could be; maybe the data analysis that led to the statement being made in the OP is no longer current. And as Pathal noted, the guide itself needs a person to love and hug and squeeze it and keep it up to date and accurate.

But "rogues in some logs I looked at didn't use it" doesn't automatically flow into "clearly the guide is wrong." There are confirmatory steps that have to happen between those two points. The tail doesn't wag the dog.

Chenz · 10/04/12, 6:28 PM

Originally Posted by Rfeann

1) The use of Rupture will not have an overwhelming impact on your DPS either way. If a person was playing a rogue badly with Rupture, they'll still be playing it badly without it.

2) This guide is -- heck, virtually any guide is -- intended to provide a sense of what a person *should* be doing, not what other people *are* doing. If Rupture is mathematically a DPS gain, then it's mathematically a DPS gain regardless of whether top-performing rogues in top-progression guilds raiding during the first week of MSV have elected to use it.

3) There can be any number of reasons why, in the first week of a raid tier, people choose not to use a particular ability or rotation (or spec, for that matter). Theorycrafting isn't necessarily complete or conclusive on a wide range of issues yet, and inertia is a powerful force.

4) The top Combat parse for Feng at the moment was posted by a Rupture-weaving rogue. So your use of "all" is probably an overstatement.

I haven't seen any evidence in this thread or others to suggest that the Rupture recommendation is wrong. I suppose it could be; maybe the data analysis that led to the statement being made in the OP is no longer current. And as Pathal noted, the guide itself needs a person to love and hug and squeeze it and keep it up to date and accurate.

But "rogues in some logs I looked at didn't use it" doesn't automatically flow into "clearly the guide is wrong." There are confirmatory steps that have to happen between those two points. The tail doesn't wag the dog.

I know this is a small sample size, but I've seen the same trend in the few fights I've analyzed in skada. In the log you linked Laxa did an average of 70k damage per eviscerate and only 68k per rupture cast. At least you can say that the damage difference between the two seems quite minimal.

Edit: Completely forgot to take the difference in energy cost into account. That would put rupture at an advantage.

Rfeann · 10/04/12, 6:41 PM

I am about as far from an expert in log analysis as Rebecca Black is from being a professional singer. Is it possible to tell from the log how often Rupture was cast at 5CP vs. a lower number of CPs?

Naggert · 10/05/12, 11:50 AM

I know it's much to ask, but could one of you numbercrunching geniouses please post the different caps? Like hit, expertise, mastery etc

Shadire · 10/05/12, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Rfeann

I am about as far from an expert in log analysis as Rebecca Black is from being a professional singer. Is it possible to tell from the log how often Rupture was cast at 5CP vs. a lower number of CPs?

Unfortunately this kind of utility for combo points analysis was always missing in WoL. So the answer is no, you can't tell that.

Roketsu86 · 10/05/12, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by Naggert

I know it's much to ask, but could one of you numbercrunching geniouses please post the different caps? Like hit, expertise, mastery etc

Hit and expertise both cap at 2550 (soft cap in expertise's case). Haste and mastery haven't had realistic caps since Wrath.

Naggert · 10/06/12, 5:43 PM

Originally Posted by Roketsu86

Hit and expertise both cap at 2550 (soft cap in expertise's case). Haste and mastery haven't had realistic caps since Wrath.

You're a darling! I was browing the armory and people seemed to have hit frp, 2437 to 2789 so I figured it was somewhere in between. Thanks!

Meygaera · 10/06/12, 10:38 PM

Does anyone know of the number of mobs required to switch to spamming FoK without blade flurry on as opposed to just doing single target rotation with blade flurry up? There isn't much in here about AoE rotations yet.

Platt · 10/07/12, 2:26 PM

I've heard it to be 8 targets. Though I cannot remember from where I read that. Not the most helpful/useful, but it's a start.