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Old 10/12/12, 1:40 PM   #61
Naquada
Glass Joe
 
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Troll Rogue
 
Frostwhisper (EU)
Originally Posted by Bonzoe View Post
I am pretty sure this statement is false, unless Blizzard changed it for 5.0.x. I am at work and can't check it at the moment.
This statement is indeed false. Auto attacks have always and are currently hitting during killing spree.

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Old 10/12/12, 1:45 PM   #62
Rfeann
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Sentinels
Originally Posted by Hanz0 View Post
Almost there but not quite. You never want Slice and Dice before Killing spree in the opener simply because you do no white hits during killing spree meaning wasting a gcd and the 3.5s wasted uptime that you wont benefit from during killing spree makes the use of slice and dice before killing spree completely redundant.
I think you might be significantly overestimating the value of KS timing relative to SnD uptime. It has been a given, for quite a long time now, that you want SnD up as quickly as possible. The sooner it's up, the sooner your passive damage (i.e., the majority of damage we deal) is increased dramatically through the 40% autoattack increase and corresponding rise in Deadly Poison procs. (And Main Gauche procs. And Combat Potency procs.) If we were opening with KS within the first GCD or two (which would obviously be a not-good thing), then your argument might have more theoretical merit, but it doesn't hold up in a scenario where you've got several seconds at the start of the fight in which you are autoattacking yet SnD is down.

(Axed that bit about merit because, while I was writing this, the posts above me explained why even that part of the argument doesn't have merit.)

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Old 10/12/12, 2:21 PM   #63
Onodrim
Piston Honda
 
Human Rogue
 
Aggramar (EU)
Originally Posted by Hanz0 View Post
Almost there but not quite. You never want Slice and Dice before Killing spree in the opener simply because you do no white hits during killing spree meaning wasting a gcd and the 3.5s wasted uptime that you wont benefit from during killing spree makes the use of slice and dice before killing spree completely redundant.

[...]

· Stealth
· Shadowstep
· Ambush
· Revealing Strike
· Sinister Strike (untill close to no energy)
· Killing Spree
· Sinister ( only if above 90 energy)
· Slice and Dice
· Adrenaline Rush
· Rupture
By this logic, you are arguing that it isn't worthwhile to use Slice and Dice before Killing Spree because this will result in 3,5 seconds (Killing Spree duration) where you don't benefit from Slice and Dice. And at the same time, you're suggesting a start-up where you don't benefit from Slice and Dice for 6,0 seconds (maybe more, depending on how many Sinister Strikes it takes you to get "close to no energy", as you put it, and depending on whether or not you use Sinister Strike after the Killing Spree as you suggest). How is 6/7,5 seconds without the benefit of Slice and Dice better than 3,5 seconds without the benefit of Slice and Dice? Also, you do, in fact, see white damage during Killing Spree.

Last edited by Onodrim : 10/12/12 at 4:33 PM.

They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.

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Old 10/12/12, 2:27 PM   #64
Onodrim
Piston Honda
 
Human Rogue
 
Aggramar (EU)
Originally Posted by Orises View Post
You will probably want to use Eviscerate in that opening sequence instead of Rupture. You are almost certainly going to energy cap when using Killing Spree and AR in quick succession, negating the benefit of using Rupture over Eviscerate.
It’s a tad RNG infected; I tested it out a good few times, and most times it’s doable to cast the Rupture without Energy capping. However, you do risk it if you see too many Combat Potency procs and I certainly ended up Energy capping a few times as well. This is anecdotal and borders on conjecture, of course; also, as your gear gets better, and with additional buffs during raids, you could face an even greater risk of Energy capping. An Eviscerate would go some way to alleviate that.

Originally Posted by kindath View Post
With anticipation, you can get to Moderate Insight before using an offensive finisher. Would it be a DPS increase to delay the first KS and AR/SB until you get to moderate? That should leave you at 5 combo points and 3-5 charges of anticipation [...]
I think you're right, it could be a dps gain. However, it’s RNG infected as well. You might simply reach 5cp5ac too fast and still be in Shallow Insight if you see too many Revealing Strike procs (too fast, and too many seems an odd label in this context). Additionally, getting to Moderate Insight also takes long enough for your initial Slice and Dice to be on the brink of running out. However, since you’d be sitting at a fair number of Anticipation charges, there’s a chance you have enough for one finisher and charges to refresh Slice and Dice – unless of course you have to refresh Slice and Dice and then don’t have 5 Combo Points for a finisher. At any rate, it seems fickle; but I suspect you could in some situations stand to gain from it.

Last edited by Onodrim : 10/12/12 at 4:31 PM.

They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.

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Old 10/13/12, 8:27 AM   #65
Omanko
Von Kaiser
 
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Worgen Priest
 
Ravencrest (EU)
This has been discussed previously; the consensus seems to be that cooldowns should, as a general rule, not be delayed. Since there is considerable variance in the actual length of the cooldowns, and missing even one use would negate most advantages gained by a delay, it's usually safest to blow them quickly. An exception arises when there are fight-specific mechanics that require use of CDs of course or make them disproportionately more powerful. Combats mechanics are just inherently RNG-based, and making the "perfect" decision in each given scenario cannot realistically be done on the fly.

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Old 10/15/12, 6:57 PM   #66
orderofmaken
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Bloodhoof (EU)
I have a question regarding enchants; is it safe to say that Dancing Steel is far ahead of Windsong for weapon enchants at this stage? There was a recent blue post discussing Windsong's proc rate, so I was just curious on that before I go ahead and blow my Sha crystal on weapon enchants in the near future.

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Old 10/15/12, 7:41 PM   #67
Omanko
Von Kaiser
 
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Worgen Priest
 
Ravencrest (EU)
There has been a change in how enchants work. They now use a "real PPM" system that averages the PPM based on several factors, trying to achieve the same number of procs regardless of what class/spec you are using. Windsong is on 2 RPPM, but I'm not sure what the number is for Dancing Steel. It is however likely to be something close, in which case it's significantly more powerful. This comes as no surprise, as it would be awkward in many ways for such an expensive and poorly accessible enchant to be worse than the cheaper alternative. If it indeed turns out to be worse (which I am almost sure it will NOT), I'd expect a fix quickly.

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Old 10/15/12, 8:17 PM   #68
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Well, lets do some ballparking.

Windsong is 2 "real PPM", meaning that on average it will proc twice a minute, assuming zero haste. Since a typical rogue runs something like 40% haste from SnD, 10% haste from raid buffs, and 10% haste from gear, we'd expect to see something like 3.388 procs per minute, for an uptime of 1 - (1 - 3.388/60)^12 = 50.2%.

Dancing Steel, on the other hand, is 1 PPM. Neglecting specials (i.e., for an OH), this has the same haste bonus as Windsong (1.694), but a 19% miss chance, hence will generate about 1.372 procs per minute, for an uptime of around 1 - (1-1.372/60)^12 = 24.2%.

Hence, Windsong is up about 2.07 times as much as Dancing Steel; since Dancing Steel provides 1650 Agi vs 1500 random stat, it will be better on the OH provided 1 agi is better than 1.88 of a random rating stat, which is... basically always true right now. So on the OH, Dancing Steel is somewhat better than Windsong - although the margin is modest - while on the MH Dancing Steel ought to be significantly better.

This, of course, assumes that Dancing Steel is a conventional PPM; if it, too, uses the new PPM system, it will have an uptime of about 29.1% on both hands, and thus have a pretty clear advantage on both weapons.

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Old 10/15/12, 9:11 PM   #69
Egészségére
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Azuremyst (EU)
I guess its also better to gem expertise/haste gems in red slots instead of agility/haste. IF the gemmed expertise that you'd be reforging otherwise is being reforged to haste instead.

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Old 10/16/12, 4:03 AM   #70
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
So, I was thinking about it some more this evening, and that ballpark value for Windsong assumes that it straight refreshes, which, per the mechanics testing thread, it doesn't - it refreshes when it procs the same stat, but not when it procs different stats. Hence, instead of the 50.2% uptime sited above, your uptime of each stat is 1 - (1 - 3.388 / 3 / 60) ^ 12 = 20.4%, meaning your average uptime of some stat is 61.2%. Based on the EP in the first post, this puts Dancing Steel at 1106 EP (OH), and Windsong at 1192 EP (on either hand). However, those EP values are for gear levels inaccessible until later in the tier. So *if* Dancing Steel is a traditional PPM, Windsong *may* catch up with it on the OH by the end of the tier. However, at the moment rating stats are relatively less valuable, so Dancing Steel probably still holds the edge.

Also note that if Dancing Steel turns out to use the new PPM mechanics, its clearly superior with the EP values in the first post.

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Old 10/16/12, 5:28 AM   #71
Omanko
Von Kaiser
 
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Worgen Priest
 
Ravencrest (EU)
It has been clarified by Blues now that only Windsong and Elemental Force use the new RPPM system (Windsong and Elemental Force Information - Forums - World of Warcraft). This systems seems to take haste into account for the proc chance, so I'm not sure about those calculations... then again, math has never been my strong point.

Regardless, the question of Windsong vs. Dancing Steel (and the INT equivalent) was in fact brought up. The blue response was as I expected: the top tier enchant is supposed to perform better, though they did add that "there may be exceptions in certain situations". I'm not sure Rogues, at this gear level, will fall into that category; but who knows, there may be certain scenarios! That's why we have the people in these here threads that can do number-magic properly :P

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Old 10/16/12, 8:05 AM   #72
orderofmaken
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Bloodhoof (EU)
So... the verdict is still out whether or not Dancing Steel or Wingsong pulls ahead; least until somebody does some number crunching math? If Dancing Steel does not benefit from the new proc system as Windsong does, will that still mean Dancing Steel is superior at this stage in the tier? Doesn't Windsong also benefit from haste? So will that have any effect on the Haste EP value for Combat if using Windsong.

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Old 10/16/12, 8:34 AM   #73
Omanko
Von Kaiser
 
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Worgen Priest
 
Ravencrest (EU)
The gist of it was that the intended design is for Dancing Steel to be the superior enchant for the vast majority of setups. I assume they simply did not want to issue a blanket statement that people could use to complain later, which is why they added the caveat.

Math remains to be done for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if Dancing Steel comes out ahead in virtually every possible scenario. But you never know, there may be some setups where it doesn't! I'm sure that as soon as someone finds out, we here will be among the first to know.

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Old 10/16/12, 1:26 PM   #74
Pancake3
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Mug'thol
I was wondering if anyone running the shadowcraft engine could give EP values for mainhand and offhand dps values on weapons for the sake of comparing different ilevel weapons. Or can it be assumed that they'll be somewhere in the ballpark that they were in cata (with oh dps being around 1.3 ep and mh dps being over 4 ep)?

In particular I'm trying to decide if the new sword from the Headless Horseman will be an upgrade over a blue, since it's been shortted on agility yet again (only 274 agility compared to the 385 agility on my blue axe), but it does have higher weapon damage and dps, that may offset the agility loss.

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Old 10/16/12, 5:01 PM   #75
Teebag89
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Neptulon (EU)
How do you read this?

Hey, please call me a noob when i say i dont have a clue how to read that script hehe. how does it work? and how do i know what to reforge, gem, glyph, enchant etc. played a year ago then i used spreadsheet, anyone knows where to find this these days? Thank you!

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