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10/24/12, 9:55 AM
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#121
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Glass Joe
Gnome Rogue
Ravenholdt (EU)
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Originally Posted by Egészségére
I was wondering, if you enchant dancing steel on both weapons. Do they have each their own proc, so there can be 2 procs up at the same time, or do they just overwrite eachother as one? (hope you know what i mean)
If the second scenario is the case, it would decrease the value of a second dancing steel.
Can anyone confirm one or the other, id like to be sure that it wont be a waste or even a "shot in my foot" before i enchant it 
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They can both be up at the same time, from my own observations.
Also, they seem to have decent uptime - I had 62.3% uptime on spirit kings 25 normal.
Not sure if WoL counts the total uptime for each, or if overlapping procs count as "the same" uptime, if you understand what I mean, though.
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10/24/12, 10:57 AM
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#122
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by phup
I looked at a few sample action lists from these runs and it appeared to be pooling properly. The energy loss to overflow was within a couple points of the non-pooling baseline. The dps distributions were a bell curve... no clusters of low dps iterations where it got stuck in some improper logic pooling loop. While it seems intuitive that one method should result in a small increase, both seem to result in a small decrease when simmed to the best of *my* ability.
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This is on par with what I suspected. It seems like taking an (ahem) extreme focus on either method simply takes away too much while giving too little. I can equate this to a simple metric in statistics called sensitivity versus specificity.
When you are diagnosing patients with a disease, you could have a 100% success rate of correctly diagnosing those with the disease by simply saying every single patient has the disease. The problem is, you are also incorrectly diagnosing those patients who do not have the disease. The goal, simply enough, is to find the best possible balance wherein your method correctly diagnoses those with the disease and correctly identifies those without the disease at the highest possible rate where both are balanced as best as possible. It will never be perfect, but the goal is to be as accurate on both parts as reasonably probable.
It applies in this situation: there are already variable outcomes when reaching certain stages of BG. Especially when reaching BG30, there is absolutely no way to determine without fail what will happen. In essence, the two scenarios already are playing themselves out regardless of what your intentions are, due to randomized factors such as proc rates. The goal being: to find that best possible balance between a pooling rotation and a rush through BG rotation. Oddly enough, in fights that are long enough it seems to me as though that balance is remarkably close to being found, regardless of what you intend to do.
I guess the TL;DR for this would be, I think running a proper rotation yields results that are measurably close to a theoretical max, regardless of what you plan to do with the BG transitions...AS LONG AS you understand the mechanics of them.
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10/24/12, 2:09 PM
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#123
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Rogue
Sentinels
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Originally Posted by Egészségére
I was wondering, if you enchant dancing steel on both weapons. Do they have each their own proc, so there can be 2 procs up at the same time, or do they just overwrite eachother as one? (hope you know what i mean)
If the second scenario is the case, it would decrease the value of a second dancing steel.
Can anyone confirm one or the other, id like to be sure that it wont be a waste or even a "shot in my foot" before i enchant it 
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All this and much, much more is available in your friendly neighborhood mechanics testing thread.
Originally Posted by Kaowa
Regarding dual wielding, the weapons will proc individual buffs, so it does stack. I assume they will refresh independently, but I'll need to run a longer log to prove it.
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Last edited by Rfeann : 10/24/12 at 6:52 PM.
Reason: originally managed to somehow quote wrong part of mechanics testing thread
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10/24/12, 5:39 PM
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#124
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Glass Joe
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He was talking about Dancing Steel, not Windsong.
//E: Dancing steel should behave like Landslide in case of stacking / refreshing.
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10/25/12, 12:05 AM
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#125
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Glass Joe
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I can confirm that dual Dancing Steel can run with two individual instances of the proc. Procs can also refresh themselves.
There's something going on with it, though, that I don't understand and I don't know enough about using WoL to investigate it well.
Both of my weapons when playing combat have Dancing Steel and one of my weapons when playing Assassination has it.
Dual Dancing Steel has ~50-60% uptime as Combat. Dancing Steel(MH) + Windsong(OH) as Assassination has 70+% Dancing Steel uptime and 35% Windsong uptime. Maybe Assassination has more chances to proc Dancing Steel with Poisons?
Last edited by Orises : 10/25/12 at 12:14 AM.
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10/25/12, 6:49 AM
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#126
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Von Kaiser
Orc Rogue
Blackmoore (EU)
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Originally Posted by Orises
I can confirm that dual Dancing Steel can run with two individual instances of the proc. Procs can also refresh themselves.
There's something going on with it, though, that I don't understand and I don't know enough about using WoL to investigate it well.
Both of my weapons when playing combat have Dancing Steel and one of my weapons when playing Assassination has it.
Dual Dancing Steel has ~50-60% uptime as Combat. Dancing Steel(MH) + Windsong(OH) as Assassination has 70+% Dancing Steel uptime and 35% Windsong uptime. Maybe Assassination has more chances to proc Dancing Steel with Poisons?
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The developers did the following comment on Dancing Steels procchance:
"Dancing Steel: 1 PPM on melee attacks that land." (Source: Enchant Weapon - Dancing Steel - Spell - World of Warcraft)
In case this statement is correct, dancing steel shouldn't proc off poison applies or ticks.
If i don't lack knowledge, PPM usually favor slower weapons due to their higher individual proc chance on each hit and also on non-autoattack skills like sinister strike. In addition to this your actions per time are higher with combat than with assassination, so for now i got no real explanation on your observations. Especially with dual dancing steel with combat instead of only one.
My logs show the following uptimes this week with running dual dancing steel with two 2.6 weapons as combat.
Spirit Kings(Almost no phases of not hitting the bosses): 76.4%
Elegon(Some movement): 65.1%
My simcraft shows 50.29% uptime on my mainhands and 35.74% on my offhands dancing steel on a patchwerk fight.
The published reports for T14H on Simulationcraft Results show similar values to mine with combat(51%/34%) and do show smaller mainhand values for assassination(40%/37%), which should be correct according to my PPM statement above.
So this is a lot higher than your uptime for combat and a lot lower than your uptime for assassination.
You should probably try both setups on similar/equal circumstances like on the same boss or on the target dummy. I think you might have been just lucky on your high uptime as assassination(perhaps even the proc or WoL was/is buggy).
Last edited by Kirtar88 : 10/25/12 at 10:24 AM.
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10/25/12, 6:57 AM
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#127
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Von Kaiser
Orc Rogue
Blackmoore (EU)
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Originally Posted by sinnaa
I believe this post sums up everything I have seen. I cannot tell you the gear breakpoints (anyone wanna give it a shot?!), but maybe something like this: low ilvl = <470, mid ilvl 470<x<490, high ilvls >490 (complete guess here). The basic point is that your gemming should most likely change over time.
Here is how I would recommend gemming red/yellow:
Low ilvl range: Focus on Delicate (pure agil).
Middle ilvl range: Focus on deft (Agil/hate) and delicate.
high ilvl range: Focus on quick (pure haste) and deft.
The EP values in the OP are, AFAIK, based on BIS gear, and as we all know, gear does alter those values. If someone has a lot of spare time (I don't right now, hence slow updating on the mechanics thread), it would be nice to get a ep value check at 460, 470, 480, 490, etc. to confirm the breakpoints.
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I just hit ilvl 480 with my combat gear and my simcraft currently shows the following weights:
Agility: 3.40
Haste: 1.68
So im about to hit my 2xhaste > 1xagi breakpoint probably around ilvl ~482-485.
Because Weapons and/or Trinkets usually have a higher impact on weights than other gear-pieces(full epic with blue weapons and trinkets vs epic weapons and trinkets and some other blues; both setups with the same ilvl), i'll add a link to my current gear:
chardev 10 - Mist of Pandaria - BETA (the missing neck is Delicate Necklace of the Golden Lotus - Item - World of Warcraft)
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10/25/12, 7:34 PM
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#128
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Glass Joe
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Shadow Blades and Killing Spree?
Normally I pop Adrenaline Rush and Shadow Blades at the same time so I get the full benefit from the extra CP generation, but since the shadow damage from Shadow Blades is so high, I'm wondering if it would make sense to wait a few seconds to pop AR so i can use Killing Spree with Shadow Blades up and get that 50% extra damage bonus to the shadow damage when those CDs happen to sync up. It would result in more shadow damage but less CPs.
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10/25/12, 8:04 PM
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#129
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Von Kaiser
Orc Rogue
Blackmoore (EU)
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Originally Posted by Aldriana
[...]
To attempt to quantify this effect: lets assume we're regenerating 16 energy per second. It takes 4 hits to advance a level, which, at 40 energy apiece, means 160 energy. Thus, the "base" cycle is 10 seconds per insight level followed by 15 seconds at deep insight. Total cycle length is thus 45 seconds, and gets an average damage bonus of 10 * 0 + 10 * 10 + 10 * 20 + 30 * 15 = 750 / 45 = 16.7%.
Alternatively, if we save 80 energy at the end of Deep Insight, and thus move two SS from Deep Insight into the 0% buff period, we now only spend 5 seconds at no insight, dropping our cycle to 40 seconds. Our average damage buff is thus boosted to 750 / 40 = 18.75%; however, this only applies to our non-SS damage. We're now spending 10 seconds worth of energy in each of the 4 phases, so our SS damage boost drops to (0 + 10 + 20 + 30) / 4 = 15%. Thus, the net DPS modifier is now 20% * 15% + 80% * 18.75% = 18%.
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I just hope i didn't screw this up in my brain, but your comparison of 15% vs 16.7% applies to "damage gain per SS used", doesn't it? Afterwards you used that newly gained 15% to multiply it with Sinister Strike being 20% of our total DPS.
But shouldn't we rather consider the damage increase of all SS used per cycle?
I came up with the following numbers and they actually look rather odd to me, because i agreed with your statement, but know they made me rethink.
In a 45s-cycle we generate 45*16=720 energy, which can be used for 18 Sinister Strikes. 6 of them while deep insight and 4 of them for each other phase.
That's (0 + 40 + 80 + 180) / 18 = ~16.7%
In a 40s-cycle we generate 40*16=640 energy, which can be used for 16 Sinister Strikes. 4 of them in each of the phases.
That's (0 + 40 + 80 + 120) / 16 = 15%
So for our total DPS gain formules we got
20% * 15% + 80% * 18.75% = 18% for the 40s-cycle
and
20% * 16.7% + 80% * 16.7% = 16.7% for the 45s-cycle.
Please tell me if i got this wrong.
Edit: Math was flawed. Ignore this post.
Last edited by Kirtar88 : 10/27/12 at 9:20 PM.
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10/25/12, 8:27 PM
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#130
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Von Kaiser
Orc Rogue
Blackmoore (EU)
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Originally Posted by Cottonpoof
Normally I pop Adrenaline Rush and Shadow Blades at the same time so I get the full benefit from the extra CP generation, but since the shadow damage from Shadow Blades is so high, I'm wondering if it would make sense to wait a few seconds to pop AR so i can use Killing Spree with Shadow Blades up and get that 50% extra damage bonus to the shadow damage when those CDs happen to sync up. It would result in more shadow damage but less CPs.
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Keep in mind you get the 50% damage bonus from KS to your auto attacks made anyway, so the damage gain from shadow blades would be (shadow_blades_dmg - auto_attack_dmg)*0.5*number_of_hits.
My last log on the spirit kings encounter shows, that my shadow blades attack did 27k on average, while my normal hits did 13k on average while using two 2.6 speed weapons. I can get at most 6-8 auto attacks during a KS, resulting in a damage gain of 14k*7*0.5 = 49k damage total, whilst losing 3-3.5 seconds(thus 3-4 GCDs which are 0.8s with glyphed AR) of CP generators during AR.
In the second-worst case, the lack of those CP will lead to one less 5CP Eviscerate during deep insight, but one more during no insight. So one of my Eviscerates would lose 1 - 1/1.3 = of its damage. The logs show the exact amout of Evis' damage during specific infight phases, but according to my insight uptimes and average Evis damage it should be around 60k for no insight and 78000 for deep insight, losing only 18k dmg, compared to a 49k gain from KS.
In the worst case, you will lose a full Eviscerate over the fight and thus lose 60k+ damage total.
Seems like the difference is too minor to probably delay you're KS for some seconds to get it on par with SB.
This is of course just a random example, but unless somebody figures the exact DPS loss for CP losses, i can't tell better.
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10/25/12, 9:02 PM
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#131
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Mike Tyson
Night Elf Rogue
Doomhammer
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Originally Posted by Kirtar88
I just hope i didn't screw this up in my brain, but your comparison of 15% vs 16.7% applies to "damage gain per SS used", doesn't it? Afterwards you used that newly gained 15% to multiply it with Sinister Strike being 20% of our total DPS.
But shouldn't we rather consider the damage increase of all SS used per cycle?
I came up with the following numbers and they actually look rather odd to me, because i agreed with your statement, but know they made me rethink.
In a 45s-cycle we generate 45*16=720 energy, which can be used for 18 Sinister Strikes. 6 of them while deep insight and 4 of them for each other phase.
That's (0 + 40 + 80 + 240) / 18 = 20%
In a 40s-cycle we generate 40*16=640 energy, which can be used for 16 Sinister Strikes. 4 of them in each of the phases.
That's (0 + 40 + 80 + 160) / 16 = 15%
So for our total DPS gain formules we got
20% * 15% + 80% * 18.75% = 18% for the 40s-cycle
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20% * 20% + 80% * 16.7% = 17.36% for the 45s-cycle.
Please tell me if i got this wrong. 
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Uh... looks to me like you're counting Deep Insight as +40% damage, when its only +30%. I suspect if you rerun the numbers with that change your numbers will match my initial scratchwork (although I won't guarantee it as I haven't actually tried it).
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10/26/12, 12:53 AM
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#132
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Glass Joe
Human Rogue
Archimonde (EU)
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Last edited by christa : 10/26/12 at 3:22 AM.
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10/26/12, 4:38 AM
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#133
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Von Kaiser
Worgen Priest
Ravencrest (EU)
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Wasn't 2 x 2.6 slightly superior to 2.6/1.8 in terms of weapons? If so, the BiS would likely be 2 x Claws. Note that (afaik anyway) you can only use the legendary gem in one of them; the socket doesn't cost item budget, though, so that's fine.
I'm also unsure about the trinkets. Is Elegon's bottle better than the DMC?
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10/26/12, 8:00 AM
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#134
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Glass Joe
Undead Rogue
Frostwolf (EU)
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Originally Posted by Omanko
I'm also unsure about the trinkets. Is Elegon's bottle better than the DMC?
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The Wowhead tooltip is bugged and you can reforge this massiv amount of mastery into haste 
Last edited by Astraar : 10/27/12 at 5:45 AM.
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10/26/12, 8:41 AM
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#135
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Von Kaiser
Worgen Rogue
Stormrage (EU)
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Can we get a shout out for [Ghost Iron Dragonling]]?
If you put 600 hit, expertise and haste into it you get:
600 x 2.4 = 1440
600 x 2.23 = 1338
600 x 1.5 = 900
Total = 3678
plus a few hundred dps for the proc.
Hey it is not great but it is something for a starter rogue.
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