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Old 11/04/12, 10:23 AM   #16
Kirtar88
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Rogue
 
Blackmoore (EU)
Your missing the point that the energy cost of kidney shot is only 25 compared to the 35 of eviscerate. So according to your base value of 102k DPE for eviscerate that's ~2914 damage per energy spent and with kidney shots energy cost being only ~71,43% of eviscerates cost it also only has to make up for that percentage of eviscerates damage to be a personal dps gain. According to your 12.8k that would only be 9.14k or 91,4k baseline dps.

Also worth mentioning is that with the relentless strikes passive our 5 CP finishers always restore 25 energy, so that makes up for the total cost of kidney shot and thus leaving eviscerate at a point where losing 10 energy needs to make up for the average "damage per resource spent" of simC, which is 4725.3 for your example and 47253 damage for the 10 energy. So with ~114k dps total a 8 second dps gain of 10% from kidney shot will result in ~91,4k damage for the kidneyshot and evis would have to do at least 91,400 + 47,252 = 138,652 damage on average to have a chance at outperforming prey for the weak on average which is not the case for its average DPE of ~128k according to that specific simC example.

I totally agree to your statement using AR/SB during a kidney will result in a higher dps regardless, since the usage of those cooldowns will further decrease eviscerates DPE compared to the total DPS.

Last edited by Kirtar88 : 11/04/12 at 10:35 AM.

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Old 11/04/12, 5:10 PM   #17
koaschten
In the rear with the gear!
 
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Troll Rogue
 
Khaz'goroth (EU)
Macro Tip for Wind Lord Mel'Jarak:
/target focus
/click ExtraActionButton1
/targetlasttarget
Will throw impaling spear on your focus'd stun target and immediatly retarget your dps target, will continue channeling the throw and resume attack on your current target.

Conditional tricks macro:
#showtooltip
/cast [help] [target=focus, help]  [target=targettarget, help] Tricks of the Trade
- if no focus target, tricks target of target
- if focus target, tricks focus target
- friendly target overrides any conditional and tricks your current friendly target

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Old 11/05/12, 11:57 AM   #18
edman201
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Medivh
I am just wondering, aside from Dancing Steel weapon enchant; are there any other options? For example, would Windsong be a good optional weapon enchant?

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Old 11/05/12, 12:11 PM   #19
Kirtar88
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Rogue
 
Blackmoore (EU)
Windsong, Elemental Force and even Landslide from cata are exceptionally close of each other in terms of dps for raid entry level gear. In fights where you'd lose uptime from windsong or landslide due to movement phases, Elemental Force is slightly better, so i'd probably go for that if you need a low-budget enchant. Dancing steel is way better though.

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Old 11/06/12, 11:59 AM   #20
Druss
Piston Honda
 
Orc Rogue
 
Kazzak (EU)
I am pretty sure Elusiveness does not have any effect on Voodoo Dolls. Can anyone confirm? If so you will want to amend the summary as below:

Gara'jal the Spiritbinder
- Glyph of Deadly Momentum for the adds.
- Elusiveness for when you are targeted by voodoo dolls.

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Old 11/06/12, 12:32 PM   #21
Schmoopy
Von Kaiser
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Druss View Post
I am pretty sure Elusiveness does not have any effect on Voodoo Dolls. Can anyone confirm? If so you will want to amend the summary as below:

Gara'jal the Spiritbinder
- Glyph of Deadly Momentum for the adds.
- Elusiveness for when you are targeted by voodoo dolls.
I have tested elusiveness on voodoo doll damage and it does not effect it in any way. See my post on page 3 of the raid mechanics thread: Mists of Pandaria 5.0.x Raid Mechanics (I cannot link directly to the relevant post because add is blocking the button). It should still work for the Shadow Bolts that the adds cast. This damage is not AoE damage, so it will not be reduced via feint unless you spec elusiveness.

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Old 11/06/12, 5:14 PM   #22
 Viper
Eyelaser Ninja Pirate
 
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Troll Rogue
 
Burning Blade
With the 5.1 change to Dancing Steel ( Windsong and Elemental Force Information - Forums - World of Warcraft ), the values in The Art of Combat (Version 1) can be revisited to illustrate the relative value on MH and OH.

At BIS EP values:
Windsong any hand (61.2% uptime of some stat) = 1144 EP
5.0 Dancing Steel OH (24.2% uptime of agi) = 1094 EP
5.1 Dancing Steel any hand (50.2% uptime of agi) = 2270 EP

These are relatively straightforward to ballpark, the 5.0 MH Dancing Steel value is a bit tougher since it varies with special ability frequency. Just drawing straight from my own logs, on a fight like Garajal I've seen around 70% uptime on dancing steel when I only have it on my MH (playing as combat). With an uptime like that, you'd be talking about 3165 EP. That said, I don't know if this is statistically relevant so I'm putting it here with a big caveat. Overall it seems like their goal may be to keep 2x dancing steel in the same general realm of dps but shift the contribution of each enchant to be a little less weighted towards the MH.

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Old 11/07/12, 7:44 AM   #23
Jerle
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Xavius (EU)
Rupture, yes or no?

I have a question about the rotation, I currently have a worgen rogue with 467 average ilevel (couple of epics, nothing that good) and I find my dps over about 50mil to be about 38k on the raiders dummy. I can provide exact stats at a later date if needed.

Regardless, my question is this: How much better should my dps be with rupture (it is 38k with or without) and how do I use this rotation?

At the moment i find myself unable to evisc most of the time due to the durations of S&D and rupture both being too low at the wrong time (e.g. both have 15secs left) which does not leave enough time to evisc -> refresh both before one drops. So as it is, when I use rupture I only really evisc on rare occasions / when AR + SB are active. As I said before, my dps does not really change at all and in fact becomes more difficult to manage than the simplistic evisc approach as I have no idea what to do about the clashing durations that always seem to appear. In addition to this, when I look at my recount evisc is ALWAYS above rupture on damage dealt, making me question the choice to add it in at all.

One last question I would like to ask, does the KS damage increase affect deadly poison / rupture ticks, or is it just the KS damage?

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Old 11/08/12, 8:57 AM   #24
Kirtar88
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Rogue
 
Blackmoore (EU)
Originally Posted by Jerle View Post
Regardless, my question is this: How much better should my dps be with rupture (it is 38k with or without) and how do I use this rotation?

[...]

One last question I would like to ask, does the KS damage increase affect deadly poison / rupture ticks, or is it just the KS damage?
- If you have to decide between rupture and evis, only use rupture when the remaining has <3 seconds duration. It will always be a dps increase, but it's only minor. Probably around +1-2% dps. It's normal that your evis deals more damage than rupture per execution. The reason why you want to use rupture is, that it costs 10 energy less then evis and so it's damage per energy spent is higher than evis'. If you don't feel any dps gain from weaving rupture due to the increasing complexity or whatever, you might as well skip using it until you feel comfortable with it.

- Always keep SnDs uptime prioritized over everything else. So try to always refresh it with whatever CP you currently have once its duration hits <2s, so the GCD used for SnD will almost exactly refresh it, once it fades. You might want to try refreshing SnD before entering deep insight with at least 2 CP if the remaining duration of SnD is less than ~16s, so you won't have to refresh it while in deep insight.

- The bonus damage from KS doesn't increase previously applied dots from poison or rupture. It increases it's own damage and the whitehits(+shadow blades) done while KS is active.

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Old 11/08/12, 10:54 AM   #25
Alash
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Karazhan (EU)
Given that Adrenaline Rush is now off GCD, the macro could be expanded upon:

#showtooltip
/startattack
/cast Adrenaline Rush
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Sinister Strike

There's a debate to be had on whether the risk of energy capping exceeds the risk of losing that CP if you're at 4-5 Anticipation stacks. However, given the nature of Restless Blades I find that you're likely to use AR at much fewer CPs, thus going a long way to diminish the risk, while maximizing use of GCDs.

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Old 11/08/12, 12:17 PM   #26
koaschten
In the rear with the gear!
 
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Troll Rogue
 
Khaz'goroth (EU)
...or the risk of triggering AR when you actually have to be moving during the uptime if you just mindlessly spam your macro.

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Old 11/08/12, 12:19 PM   #27
Kirtar88
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Rogue
 
Blackmoore (EU)
Originally Posted by Alash View Post
Given that Adrenaline Rush is now off GCD, the macro could be expanded upon:

#showtooltip
/startattack
/cast Adrenaline Rush
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Sinister Strike

There's a debate to be had on whether the risk of energy capping exceeds the risk of losing that CP if you're at 4-5 Anticipation stacks. However, given the nature of Restless Blades I find that you're likely to use AR at much fewer CPs, thus going a long way to diminish the risk, while maximizing use of GCDs.
The "/cast Sinister Strike" line will (sometimes) waste CP in a scenario, where you have three or more anticipation charges and use the macro(You kind of said that already). I often immediately use an offensive finisher after activating AR, so for maximum performance u'd probably also need macros with "/cast Eviscerate", "/cast Rupture" and "/cast Slice and Dice". With a hotkey configuration allowing the simultaneous use of SS/Evis/Rupture/SnD and the AR macro you shouldn't lose a GCD at all unless you're slow with button smashing.

I'm not sure about other rogues, but since i swapped all my gemming to maximise the haste amount on my gear, i sometimes have trouble(depends on energy restore procs) not to cap on energy while AR is up anyway, so i'd go for the variation of eliminating the risk of losing a CP.

Given the nature of Restless Blades for me it's actually more likely to have more CPs when using AR and this is why:
- AR often readies due to restless blades after using a finisher.
- If this finisher was used outsight of deep insight, we usually have some anticipation converted to CP afterwards.
- So we are somewhere around 1-5 CP and 40+ energy after using this finisher, because of Relentless Strikes. Add another one of two SS/RvS to get low on energy before popping AR and we are around 3-9 CP.
- So with two SS/RvS used before popping AR we could end up wasting 1-2 CP with the macro and even more if we used more SS/RvS before due to energy restore procs.

Some thoughts on the energy capping side:
- With my current gear(which is not too great) i got 28.23 energy reg per second and ~1.2s speed on both weapons when AR is active annd a 37,5% chance to trigger my mastery when raidbuffed.
- Using finishers with 5 CP grants 25 energy, so rupture and SnD "don't consume" energy with 5 CP and evis uses 10 energy.
- Our GCD while AR is active is 0.8s when glyphed.
- The proc chance of combat potency is 20% for main gauche and (20*OffhandWeaponSpeed/1.4)% for OH whitehits.(I use a 2.6 OH)

Math with my stats:
MH white every 1.2s, MH yellow every 0.8s, OH white every 1.2s.
-> ~2.08 MH attacks per second, that can proc main gauche into combat potency. -> ~2.34 energy per second from MH attacks.
-> ~0.83 OH attacks per second, that can proc potency with a chance of ~37.14% -> ~4.62 energy per second from OH attacks. (This assumes no misses on OH whites, actual value would be 4.21 energy per second)

That's a sum of 28.23 + 2.34 + 4.62 = 35.19 energy per second.

With the RvS debuff(assume no new application during AR, but a 100% uptime of the debuff) and AR/SB active one SS gives 2.2 CP on average, so we can use a 5 CP finisher every ~2.27 GCDs worth of SS, which can be done in 1.816 seconds with the AR glyph. Adding the finisher on another 0.8s GCD we generated and used 5 CP over the course of 2.616 seconds for the cost of 88-98 energy(2.2 times SS and 0-10 for finishers). In this 2.616 seconds i regenerate 92 energy on average.

Adding server lag and human behaviour, i will most likely generate more energy than i can use up(on average), so with better gear it might be impossible to not overcap on energy anyway with AR active, so i'd probably just go for eliminating the risk of wasting CPs and thus not use such a macro.

Any thoughts?

One additional note: When BF is active, we won't cap and thus risking the loss of CPs should be avoided.

Last edited by Kirtar88 : 11/08/12 at 12:31 PM.

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Old 11/08/12, 10:07 PM   #28
Hadouken
Glass Joe
 
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Undead Rogue
 
Azshara (EU)
I would realy preciate if you're doing the "final" calcs on the undead and troll racial

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Old 11/09/12, 7:09 AM   #29
Knarcus
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Azshara (EU)
Several questions regarding CDs and BF

Hi, I have got several questions which I could not find the answer for in the rogue threads. I did not read all of them, but I did read most of the current ones.


1. Is it a good idea to use our CDs (AR+SB or KS) during Bloodlust?
If that is the case, how long should I wait for Bloodlust to match my CDs with it before I lose out on total DPS by not using my CDs on cooldown?


2. Should I turn off BF while attacking 2 Targets when I am using KS and turn it back on afterwards?


3. How does the targeting system for BF work? I think it uses my Proximity to the 2nd target, which I am not attacking, and the relative angle I am facing the 2nd target with.
- I think I found the answer to this on wowhead. One comment says that there is no angle requirement (BF can even copy attacks to targets behind you) and that there is a 5 yards max distance requirement to both targets. So you could hit one target that is 5 yards in front of you and BF would still copy the swings to the 2nd target 5yards behind you.
I will still leave the question up in case somebody has the same question.


4. My last question is regarding binding my trinkets and engineer enchant to my CDs:
Currently I only have my elove enchant every 60s ready, and there are trinkets in game with 90s and 120s on use CDs.
Is it a good idea to bind my gloves to Both AR+SB and KS? Or should I use them on cooldown for max uptime?

How long does it take for AR+SB take to be off CD when you are having 100% uptime against a single boss? How long vs 2 targets using BF?
Will that time match one of the listed trinket CD windows or will one of them be significantly earlier ready than the other? And if so, will it be worth the wait to match them up?

5. When fighting 2 targets (Stone Guard) should I switch targets whenever RvS fades for max poison uptime on both targets?


I know these are a lot of questions, I would really appreciate if you answered all of them.

PS:"[Glyph of Feint] - Any fight with AoE raid damage. Also adds 2 seconds to the duration of the elusiveness talent."
- It only adds 2 seconds to the overall duration, so you can get rid of the "Also"

Last edited by Knarcus : 11/09/12 at 8:26 AM. Reason: found answer to 3.

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Old 11/09/12, 9:28 AM   #30
Druss
Piston Honda
 
Orc Rogue
 
Kazzak (EU)
Encounter tip for Garalon:

Be cautious using Killing Spree. You can still use it but only if you trigger it at a point where it will only attack a leg rather than the body (if you trigger it in range of the body that will put you under the boss and trigger a Crush).

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