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Old 11/09/12, 9:51 AM   #31
Kirtar88
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Rogue
 
Blackmoore (EU)
Originally Posted by Knarcus View Post
1. Is it a good idea to use our CDs (AR+SB or KS) during Bloodlust?
If that is the case, how long should I wait for Bloodlust to match my CDs with it before I lose out on total DPS by not using my CDs on cooldown? [...]

2. Should I turn off BF while attacking 2 Targets when I am using KS and turn it back on afterwards?

3. How does the targeting system for BF work? [...]

4. Currently I only have my elove enchant every 60s ready, and there are trinkets in game with 90s and 120s on use CDs. Is it a good idea to bind my gloves to Both AR+SB and KS? Or should I use them on cooldown for max uptime?

How long does it take for AR+SB take to be off CD when you are having 100% uptime against a single boss? How long vs 2 targets using BF?
Will that time match one of the listed trinket CD windows or will one of them be significantly earlier ready than the other? And if so, will it be worth the wait to match them up?

5. When fighting 2 targets (Stone Guard) should I switch targets whenever RvS fades for max poison uptime on both targets?
1. This comes down a lot to the need of extra dps while bloodlust is active and total fight length. If AR/KS is rdy when BL is popped and you delay it for 40 seconds, you're most of the time guaranteed to lose a full AR/KS over the course of the fight, so you should use it while BL is active, but not delay it to wait for BL. BL doesn't have a huge impact on KS in terms of energy capping, but for AR you will most likely perma-cap, but with the introduction of SB, using AR while BL is up, isn't too bad any longer. It might be beneficial to use AR without SB if a bloodlust will be active soon and line SB with bloodlust + potion. We probably need further discussion regarding this topic.

2. No.

3. It's a 360° with your character as the center, spreading the damage into all directions if there is a target to hit within range. So as you said, you can also hit targets behind you with BF.

4.1 For the gloves and trinkets you wan't to use them as often as possible throughout the encounter, so you need to compare the cooldown with the respective enrage timers. If your raid will wipe at e.g. 8:30 because of an enrage, your last use of such items should be at (8:30 - buff_duration), so 8:20 for the gloves and so on. If you got spare seconds according to those values and can delay it for the use with AR/KS you should go for it. Macroing the gloves might be a good idea, if its your only or strongest on-use effect, since most of them trigger their duration as cooldown for other on-uses so you want to use the strongest to line them with your dps cooldowns.

4.2 This significantly depends on the amount of haste your gear has. For your personal values you could run simC and check the interval of uses for AR and KS respectively. The T14H entry on the simC page shows that AR/SB occur every 87.75s and KS every 60.96s with 100% uptime on a patchwerk-encounter.

5. If you can manage to do so without losing dps, you should do it. You can even switch at any time for some whitehits to proc the poison and retarget your RvS target again before using SS or finishers. Try to keep track of your raids debuffs though(weakened armor, +4% phys. dmg taken, etc). If only one target has them, you want to stick with that one.

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Old 11/09/12, 5:35 PM   #32
Honzu
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Kel'Thuzad
Originally Posted by Knarcus View Post
2. Should I turn off BF while attacking 2 Targets when I am using KS and turn it back on afterwards?
Just a little clarification on Kirtar's 'no.' Blade flurry copies KS hits.

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Old 11/11/12, 7:14 AM   #33
shadowboy813
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Aggramar
I just want to note a minor correction in the single target rotation.

Clipping the last tick of a higher insight rupture IS a dps loss. It does not work the way it's described in the guide. What it does is if you apply rupture with say 1.5sec remaining on the current one, the new one is 25.5 sec and the last tick of the previous rupture takes on the per-tick new rupture value--there is no stacking/rolling. Basically what you get is 11 ticks at old value and 13 ticks at new value. It does NOT add the remaining deep insight damage to the new lower-insight rupture.

Here is a picture demonstrating:



Note that there are 11 ticks at 3194 damage (a deep insight rupture--you can see the deep insight aura fade after the 5th tick). At 06:51:14 is the first tick of a new, no-insight rupture (you can tell because 3194 / 1.3 = 2456.9). Note that there are 11 ticks at 3194 damage and 13 ticks at 2457.

If it used the "rolling" method of ignite, the new rupture would have added about 266 (3194 / 12) damage to each tick of the new rupture. (3194 / 1.3) + 266 = 2723. The damage of the new rupture is almost exactly 23% (1 - 1/1.3) less than the deep insight rupture, on a per tick basis.

For that picture I used unenchanted weapons and unequipped my trinkets. There were no procs that increase my attack power. Revealing strike was not used. My attack power was 33,341.

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Old 11/11/12, 10:26 AM   #34
Kirtar88
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Rogue
 
Blackmoore (EU)
At The Art of Combat (Version 1) i wrote the following:

Originally Posted by Kirtar
- Apply 5 CP Rupture with a specific insight level (shallow, moderate, deep)
- Clip the last tick(duration <= 3 seconds) with a 5 CP Rupture of a lower insight level compared to the one you've been in when applying the first Rupture.

Result:
The clipped tick not only increased the duration of the new Rupture by up to 3 seconds(this was known before ofc), but also merged the former higher damage due to a higher inside level into the first tick of the new rupture.

Values:
- 5 CP no insight ticks: 2429 dmg
- 5 CP deep insight ticks: 3157 dmg
- 5 CP no insight rupture clipping a tick of a 5 CP deep insight rupture ticks: 5585(~2429+3157) dmg for the first tick and the usual 2429 for the others
What i said in the guide is that the additional damage of the higher insight tick will only be added to the first tick of your freshly applied rupture, not that it's damage will be evenly spread among all ticks. But your log indeed doesn't show that either, so it probably got fixed since i last tested it. I will try it again and post my combat log excerpt.

Edit: Tested it once more and i indeed couldn't get any extra damage to my first tick of the new lower insight rupture. Need to do the calculations now if it's still worthwile to clip the tick or not.

Last edited by Kirtar88 : 11/11/12 at 10:40 AM.

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Old 11/11/12, 12:45 PM   #35
shadowboy813
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Aggramar
In order for adding the two rupture tick damages to work without creating damage out of thin air, the first rupture would have to have a tick removed for a total of 23 ticks--otherwise clipping a tick of every rupture would become a dps gain and I do not believe that's what blizzard would intend.

As to whether or not it's worth clipping a higher insight rupture, I would guess no. It may still be better damage-per-energy than eviscerate, but it may be better to just pool the up-to-2 seconds (rupture ticks 2 seconds, clipping at 2<x<4 will lose a tick) and apply after it falls off, or add to anticipation charges (if talented) until then. Uptime for combat is not as important as it is for the other two specs. In late-gear scaling (not necessarily T14) it may even turn out that you don't want to clip the last tick of a higher-insight rupture at all, due to the fact that eviscerate has a higher AP coefficient than rupture.

In either case, due to those mechanics it is unequivocally a damage gain to clip the last tick of a lower insight rupture with a higher insight one. I did extensive testing on rupture clipping mechanics in beta, as seen in this post. The behavior is the same in the converse scenario where you clip a lower insight rupture with a higher one. I've found that no-insight to early shallow insight ruptures fall off during deep insight. Whether or not it's worth delaying the rupture if it falls off in moderate insight, I don't know.

Last edited by shadowboy813 : 11/11/12 at 12:52 PM.

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Old 11/13/12, 3:22 PM   #36
13a5ti
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Blackrock (EU)
With Engineering you can attach either
Nitro Boosts (massive movement speed boost, but can fail and leave a DoT on you, that can be cloaked; 3min CD)
or
Frag Belt (33,299 to 38,700 Fire Damage; 1min CD; no GCD; instant small 3y AoE; can crit; scales with some buffs like Touch of the Titans (Elegon); does not reset your swing timer; about 600DPS per target you can hit (do not use it on Wind Lord, the mini stun counts as CC!!))
to your belt.

Last edited by 13a5ti : 11/13/12 at 4:20 PM.

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Old 11/13/12, 7:11 PM   #37
Egészségére
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Azuremyst (EU)
Use

#showtooltip ambush
/cast [@focus] tricks of the trade
/cast ambush

when vanishing will boost your raid dps, if you dont glyph tricks and got shadow focus talent.

Not much but everything counts.

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Old 11/14/12, 5:18 AM   #38
Roketsu86
Glass Joe
 
Roketsu86's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Silvermoon
Originally Posted by Egészségére View Post
Use

#showtooltip ambush
/cast [@focus] tricks of the trade
/cast ambush

when vanishing will boost your raid dps, if you dont glyph tricks and got shadow focus talent.

Not much but everything counts.
I would not recommend using a macro like that, as TotT is on the GCD and thus you'd spend more time in stealth and no auto attacking than you should.

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Old 11/15/12, 6:17 AM   #39
Seliathan
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
TotT got its GCD removed quite a while ago, just fyi.

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Old 11/16/12, 4:58 AM   #40
Khazilein
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Die Aldor (EU)
Would like to add for Amber-Shaper Un'sok: Preparation for removing Parasitic Growth.

The debuff is a major problem in this fight, being able to remove it more often, is a huge asset.

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Old 11/18/12, 9:28 AM   #41
Mr_V
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Khadgar (EU)
I have just upgraded Windswept Pages Shado-Pan's agility/haste trinket Hawkmaster Talon as according to the Shadowcraft it was the largest dps gain for my current gear for VP-sold gear.

Just wondering about this though - the tooltip says:

+1079 Agility
Use: Increases your haste by 3,595 for 15 sec. (1 Min Cooldown)

For combat spec, haste is most important after hit/expertise cap, and much more important than mastery/crit. However, seeing that trinket is USE and not PROC, I'm wondering what is the best time to use it? My initial thought is to macro it to be used with Adrenaline Rush and Shadowblades.

But does this make sense? Haste helps energy regeneration, i.e. speed of the attacks. Since Adrenaline Rush already boosts energy regeneration by 100%, would it not make more sense to use this trinket in between Adrenaline Rushes, when I'm actually waiting for energy to be regenerated to do a few SS's and other hits?

Of course, a good answer is "use whenever possible" as it has a relatively short CD, but just wondering would I benefit more, if I had the option, in trying to use it between Adrenaline Rushes rather than during them?

Cheers

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Old 11/18/12, 10:22 AM   #42
CodeNameSly
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Warrior
 
The Forgotten Coast
Originally Posted by Mr_V View Post
But does this make sense? Haste helps energy regeneration, i.e. speed of the attacks. Since Adrenaline Rush already boosts energy regeneration by 100%, would it not make more sense to use this trinket in between Adrenaline Rushes, when I'm actually waiting for energy to be regenerated to do a few SS's and other hits?
As long as you don't end up capping on energy when you use it during AR, then there is no problem with doing so. Indeed, if you're using AR and Shadow Blades together, this will be optimal. Obviously you will be able to use it between ARs, as well. Most likely you will be able to use it with first AR, on CD, during second AR, etc.

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Old 11/18/12, 5:41 PM   #43
Slymon
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Daggerspine (EU)
1. Have anyone done any math considering saving CP's for a higher insight level through Anticipation vs. reaching a higher insight level faster with the help of the energy you regen from your finishers?
When I try to save up 9-10 CP's for a higher insight level, I feel like things are going so slow. At my current state of gear, I'm nowhere near capping energy without AR/SB. So I'm wondering if that extra energy that I might gain from a couple of "early" evis will be a dps gain?

2. I've caught myself a few times really pushing to get rupture up before a KS. It naturally seems like a dps gain to have all dots up before you go into a state you can't controll. But after reading here, it seems like I shouldn't use a damaging finisher at all. I should just save up as many CP's as possible. And if KS still got a few secs on CD, I should use Evis instead while waiting and a SS to dump energy beofre the KS.
Am I correct?

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Old 11/19/12, 3:08 AM   #44
Guaicow
Glass Joe
 
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Worgen Rogue
 
Stormrage
Is rupture a DPS gain EVEN if you are in the final seconds of Deep Insight?

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Old 11/19/12, 3:21 AM   #45
Chult86
Piston Honda
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by Guaicow View Post
Is rupture a DPS gain EVEN if you are in the final seconds of Deep Insight?
I thought it was established that Rupture ticks don't change, so if you apply it during DI it will keep ticking for that 30% increased damage.

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