ShadowCraft for Mists of Pandaria - Page 5

natox · 12/05/12, 6:10 AM

How accurate are race models currently SC? Is the berserking change from mid-firelands in? It was changed to haste instead of attack speed as far as I remember or is pandaren really that much stronger?

Thorli · 12/05/12, 8:37 AM

Hello, and thanks a lot for your work on SC !
I've a little problem about the rotation settings :
Even with a 1 Min CP/Envenom > 35%, nothing has changed in the dps calculator.
This is the same problem for all others choices of cp's number, and for the options like prioritize rupture.
All web browsers tested.

Rota · 12/08/12, 6:53 AM

First of a fantastic tool to support my rogue and I been using it from the beginning. I got a problem interpreting the results in regards of what gems to use.
The background is that before Shadowcraft returned I decided to test a build using haste gems to see if it helped in my energy starvation.
The behaviour is the same regardless of the order of “Auto-reforge” and “Optimize gems” (the numbers can differ slightly)

Hitting “Optimize gems”:
First time -298EP -452,5 DPS
Second time -84EP -172,7 DPS
Third time 183EP +172,7 DPS

This jump up and down then continue, I interpret it as I’m at a “break point” so that is not my concern. Why the first big drop in DPS and why can’t I get back to the DPS I got at the start?
Another matter is the -84EP = -127,7DPS and +183EP= +172,7DPS is this only something in the presentation of the result? I knew EP fluctuate with gear but ~100EP from regeming?

My rogue is Rota @ The Sha’tar EU-server

Arragoth · 12/08/12, 3:18 PM

Is there any math on the Undead racial yet? I have scoured the forums but haven't seen any solid 470+ilvl math on it.

Twoboxer · 12/09/12, 9:07 PM

Originally Posted by Thorli

. . . Even with a 1 Min CP/Envenom > 35%, nothing has changed in the dps calculator.
This is the same problem for all others choices of cp's number, and for the options like prioritize rupture.
All web browsers tested.

Have what may be the same problem using IE9, ie, some changes (including the initial load of my character) do not trigger a recalc. Found I could trigger a recalc almost 100% by making a meaningless spec change, ie, Shadowstep to something else, next time back to Shadowstep again. Google Chrome does not exhibit this problem for me.

Pathal · 12/10/12, 1:58 PM

To reiterate, if you have Anticipation chosen, the min CP settings and prioritize rupture settings don't do anything. The backend calcs were done like this to simplify everything and quicken the code, and it's working as intended right now.

Haileaus · 12/10/12, 9:10 PM

Is the proc behavior or Arrowflight/Woundripper Medallion correct? Considering it has the same ilvl, amount of agi, and the same type of proc as (normal) Terror in the Mists it surprises me that it would be Windswept Pages and Searing Words for combat in my current gear. Granted trinket does proc less agi, but is it not balanced by more PPM?

Indz · 12/11/12, 5:10 AM

No, the new trinket procs are not yet in. But will be soon.

theherecy · 12/14/12, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by snowman2050

In response to your questions:

a) Yes, but be aware that EP values do fluctuate with gear, in one instance you may find Expertise just behind Mastery, in another instance you may find it below Haste. The best way for you to keep track is by using Shadowcraft, having a quick look at your profile puts Expertise in your current gear set at 0.98, which is lower than Haste.

b) In certain conditions yes, my advice would be to follow Shadowcraft as stated above.

Thank you for your response. I can see what you're saying but I have my serious doubts with Shadowcraft, by all means It is a good program and no disrespect to the owner. But the following showcases my concerns:

Using the reforge tool it says for me to change one thing:

1) hit -> mastery now goes crit -> mastery

Now bearing in mind my hit is at 7.61 already I can't see the logic in this, hit is horrific past 7.5%, noted by the very low EP values after the cap

2) When I tried to "optimize gems" it returned some half-assed attemp that lowered my DPS, it even admitted that! A simple IF statement would have been useful there.

So my question is do I actually trust that tool?

metzli · 12/14/12, 11:11 AM

A tool is a tool. It is only as useful as its user makes it.

If you are depending on shadowcraft to do everything for you, then maybe you have other problems to sort out. However if you want a tool to give you fairly accurate EP weights, and to test out different reforgings / gemmings without wasting gold in game....then it'll get the job done.

theherecy · 12/14/12, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by metzli

A tool is a tool. It is only as useful as its user makes it.

If you are depending on shadowcraft to do everything for you, then maybe you have other problems to sort out. However if you want a tool to give you fairly accurate EP weights, and to test out different reforgings / gemmings without wasting gold in game....then it'll get the job done.

Maybe I should rephrase my question, I'm not saying I use the tool at all; I don't.

Another member has suggested I use it and I'm just pointing out that there are some serious bugs in it and whether I should trust it.

Schmoopy · 12/14/12, 11:31 AM

@theherecy:

Envenom uptime is great and all, but you don't want to throw dodged envenoms all day. As has been pointed out exp capping prevents specials from getting dodged and reduces the amount of melee hits that are dodges. The more melee hits that connect the more chances to proc poisons, which is the whole point of having envenom buff up.

Also, if you inherently don't trust shadowcraft then do not use it, but the two points you bring up sound more like user errors or misunderstanding of how EP values work.

theherecy · 12/14/12, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by Schmoopy

@theherecy:

Envenom uptime is great and all, but you don't want to throw dodged envenoms all day. As has been pointed out exp capping prevents specials from getting dodged and reduces the amount of melee hits that are dodges. The more melee hits that connect the more chances to proc poisons, which is the whole point of having envenom buff up.

Also, if you inherently don't trust shadowcraft then do not use it, but the two points you bring up sound more like user errors or misunderstanding of how EP values work.

I fully understand the first point, my question was whether the free envenom buff was worth the loss in other areas. This has been answered.

I don't trust shadowcraft after some of those experiences, but as other users have pointed out the EP values should be sound. I'm sorry if i'm just a complete noob at this but I honestly don't believe that taking 170 hit at 0.64 is better than 170 crit at 0.99...

metzli · 12/14/12, 1:35 PM

The regemming button just replaces gems with the highest gems based on current EP value, and doesn't take slot bonuses into account currently. So it's going to be wrong about 100% of the time.

The reforging I have found to generally be pretty accurate. You might have to play a little bit with haste/crit, but I've never seen it suggest going over the yellow hit cap with reforges. If you're getting such a suggestion that's probably a bug and I am sure the app designers would like to hear about it.

Also...This shadowcraft discussion is starting to get really off topic. Maybe a mod could move this discussion where it goes?

• Aldriana · 12/14/12, 1:40 PM

The thing to keep in mind with ShadowCraft is that its really not a single monolithic tool. There's at least 3 distinct components, written by different people, involved. Notable in this case is that the logic that computes DPS and EP values is entirely distinct from the reforger/gem optimizer. The reforger is a separate piece of logic that takes the EP values provided by that module and attempts to find the best possible reforge. So while the reforger has been known to make some slightly strange decisions, that doesn't mean the EP values and DPS estimate are in any way in doubt; a problem with the reforger and a problem with the DPS calculator are two very different things.

I will also note that this isn't intended as a knock on the reforger; reforging is actually a very hard problem, and to guarantee the globally optimum reforge would be ridiculously computationally intensive. As such, by necessity it uses heuristics and simplifying assumptions to find a "pretty good" reforge in a reasonable amount of time. However, this also necessarily means that sometimes it will miss things, so there will be situations where you can manually fiddle the EP values to increase the DPS estimate.