Anybody have any numbers or values for the old "Hand of Justice" trinket from BRD.
One of my fellow Rogues has been playing around with it in raids and his DPS "seems" to have improved ever so slightly. He is 4/5 T5 Sword spec with Talon of Azshara and OH from ZA.
Group composition in our raid is nearly always 2x Sword Rogues, 1x Enh Shaman, 1x Fury Warrior and 1x Feral Druid.
He has swapped out WSC for the HoJ. So he is running with DST+HoJ.
Could do with some advice as to how to measure the performance and over what sort of period, to see if our initial perception is correct or just a fluke.

Comments on wowhead put the level 70 proc rate at 1.33%. It *should* be roughly equivalent to adding between 1 and 2 additional talent points in sword spec.

For me in my current gear (early T5), 2 points in sword spec is worth 23 DPS, Romulo's poison vial is worth 34 DPS, and DST is worth 50+ DPS. Sp my gut would be "No, it's not worth it." However, at high-end gear it could scale differently... who knows.

It looks like if you unhide the Buffed and Unbuffed Cycle sheets and just zero out the formula in S17, you can simulate this change.

We've kinda been discussing this in Roguecraft 101. Seems the consensus is that Rupture is still 2nd finisher for 20/41/0, but that 41/20/0 could make good use of Envenom as a third finisher over Eviscerate.

Roguecraft 101

I'm interested to see what kind of DPS buffs this change will make. Anyone tried DMM's suggestion in their spreadsheet yet?

with the latest update My unbuffed AP isn't shown correctly on my character. the change in the way mongoose is valued is more accurate, but it ends up showing as a part of your unbuffed AP. Just thought I'd let yah know that's where people may see a discrepency in what their actual AP,Crit, and Dodge are unbuffed.

Actually this really isn't something new. The same happens for averaged trinkets or other items with on-use effects. Unfortunately, there isn't really a great way to implement on-use or proc stats that matches one's character sheet. If you really think about it, it doesn't match the char sheet anyway. Mongoose procs, your char sheet values go up. Use a trinket, your AP is higher. I'm sure we've all seen screenshots with what can happens to one's weapon speed...

The truth is, those values being accurate, the spreadsheet will be showing your true average unbuffed AP or dodge or the like. Now, there is one advantage to estimating in-line things like Mongoose. That estimate carries into the cycle sheet for recommendations. In the past, things like mongoose procs didn't factor in.

It's the whole chicken and the egg issue. To get an accurate estimation of Mongoose, one needs to know how many special attacks one has. To determine an accurate best cycle, this is, in part, based on your stats. The way it will be dealt with in the end is by this estimation up front to determine the cycles. Then, after cycles are determined, an accurate value is derived and DPS adjusted up or down accordingly after the cycle is determined. Right now, phase one is in. Phase two coming soon.

Quoting myself from the Roguecraft thread real quick to refresh you on mechanics...

You are not hit-capped until you have 343 hit rating and eat [Spicy Hot Talbuk]. Hence +10 hit gems are still useful for you.

This is because when you equip the second piece, the Twinblade set bonus becomes active giving you major amounts of haste and additionally AP (if mob type is any or a Demon). If you wish to just have a more direct comparison, remove the MH Warglaive and compare them again.

I know it gives me the proc but I wouldn't think that it makes so much of a difference - it's almost 1/5 to 1/6 of my total DPS. Compare it to Dragonspine.

200 AP vs Demons
450 Haste rating for 10 seconds which, if it's roughly equivalent to a mongoose or executioner proc rate (considering both weapons) will give about a 50% uptime for 225 static haste rating.

That's a lot of stats for the set bonus.

Maybe I'm totally off the track here, but I'm quite sure the Twinblade proc has in internal cooldown of 45 seconds (added at the same time as the DST-nerf), so 50% uptime is impossible to reach.

A guild mate hacked together a spreadsheet with Sunwell items. It's at (edited out since an official one is up). It's just the most recent version with the items added in, so more of a stopgap until the real spreadsheet makers finish theirs up.

I have recently been working on adding new cycles to the sheet, and they should be out shortly, however the problem with a loss in dps by adding points in Imp. SnD and Seal Fate seems to be due to a lack of snd cut cycles represented in the sheet. Any sf swords/daggers people out there that can suggest a few relevant snd cut cycles other than Xs/5r and Xs/5e?

The new Slayer Armor set: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ayer_armor.jpg

A quick note: For special Sunwell procs that are unknown or have likely cooldowns, I chose not to add the proc at all for the time being. So any evaluation will be without the proc (especially badges).

2.4.0.2 and 2.4.0.2NA are now up!!!

2.4.0.2 dmm

Added
Blackened Naaru Sliver
Bladed Chaos Tunic
Bombardier's Blade
Brooch of Deftness
Carapace of Sun and Shadow
Crux of the Apocalypse
Demontooth Shoulderpads
Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade
Duplicitous Guise
Fang of Kalecgos
Gloves of Immortal Dusk
Gloves of the Forest Drifter
Hard Khorium Band
Hard Khorium Choker
Harness of Carnal Instinct
Inuuro's Blade
Latro's Dancing Sword
Leggings of the Immortal Beast
Leggings of the Immortal Night
Mask of the Furry Hunter
Muramosa
Opportunist's Leather Gloves
Opportunist's Leather Helm
Opportunist's Leather Legguards
Opportunist's Leather Spaulders
Opportunist's Leather Tunic
Quad Deathblow X44 Goggles
Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm
Shard of Contempt
Shattered Sun Pendant of Might
Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve
Shiv of Exsanguination
Shoulderpads of Vehemence
Slayer's Belt
Slayer's Boots
Slayer's Bracers
Steely Naaru Sliver
The Sunbreaker
Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury
Truestrike Crossbow
Many more cycles. (Thanks to Todemax!)

Changed
Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality formula (dps increase)
Twinblade bonus (estimate accounts for 45 second cooldown)
Band of the Eternal Champion (added 4 ap to proc based on better estimate)
Grayed gems sockets now fill with Glinting Noble Topazes on Armory Import to somewhat improve upgrade determinations.

Fixed
Item names no longer shrink to fit to resolve visiblity issues on Macs.
Macro boxes larger to hopefully resolve text issues on a Mac.
Macro box margins reduced to 0 to hopefully reduce text issues.
Set Font size for comments in Upgrade Macro to resolve display issue on Macs.
Formerly named T5 set properly renamed T6.
Shadowstep energy now correctly deducted from buffed cycles.

Readded
Grand Marshal and High Warlord Weapons
Thunderfury
Gyro-Balanced Khorium Destroyer
Legionkiller
Shuriken of Negation

And just a heads-up...

I'm aware that more items have been posted since... (5 more at the time of this post that I'm aware).

I will probably be waiting for more to accumulate before next Sunwell update.

yea i'm kind of wondering how it's possible that Ashtongue could go from a >1dps upgrade over bloodlust brooch to 25 dps upgrade and now be the best trinket in the game next to dragonspine....

something definately doesnt seem right

Hello again. Long time since I've posted, but still I'm still loving this spreadsheet. I have a few requests.

I mostly pvp, and I was wondering if it would be possible to include a "PVP mode" where you input the targets Resilience, and the DPS takes into account the damage reduction on Crits.

The Eviscerate Calculation never seems to work, or maybe I'm doing something wrong. It always says 0.
Could you add an Expose Armor slot in the DPS Tab, that shows the Armor reduction for each point, and it includes your own armor penetration? Reason I ask for this is to see how strong of an expose i need to remove the average armor from a clothy.

Also can you add Crippling Poison/Res gems/Medallion of the A/H to the slots? I feel naked leaving those slots empty from what I use.

It really comes down to cycle times. If you have 2 finishers and a cycle time near 20 seconds, you can approach 100% theoretical uptime. It's a strange trinket in that its value varies a lot based on your cycle and build. But then if you start running a 5s/5r cycle (which most top-end rogues run as the value of specials increase, your uptime goes down to about 67% (20/30.45)

Now that people have discovered that Haste doesn't increase proc rates, it's only benefit seems to be for combat potency. Now, with the Haste nerf (1/3 worse) and the 20 second cooldown (cutting DST uptime in about half) and the discovery that Haste doesn't increase proc rates, I'm showing an estimate of 81 Haste rating + the 40 attack power. Compare that to about 95 crit rating...DST still probably a little better. (Maybe this estimate will go up when I implement phase 2 (basing it off actual swing amounts).

But until you are running 5s/5r, especially if you are running 3s/5r (21.75 cycle time or 20/21.75 * .8 = 106 crit rating), the spreadsheet will be showing Ashtongue as very strong. Probably stronger than it is since at lower gear levels people have shorter cycles especially with 2-pc T4 which you won't still be using when you actually get Ashtongue.

The problem with that analysis, DMM, is that if you're running 3s5r, Ashtongue won't proc on every Slice and Dice; rather, it will only proc on 60% or so of them. Hence, as far as I've been able to tell, for most people running an Xs5r type cycle as combat swords, the proc rate should be around 70%.

True. But the 3s/5r example is actually 80% (average of 60% for first proc, 100% for last proc) now a revised 106 crit rating. I'll fix that in the above post. The point still being that it is a rather powerful trinket and 106 crit rating compares favorably to 81 Haste and 40 ap which seems to be DST these days.

Now compare it to Bloodlust Brooch which calcs to ~118 AP, it should blow that away.

Well, the typical 3s5r cycle is a bit over 20 seconds (a 3 point SnD lasts 15 * 1.45 = 21.75 seconds), so if we're counting 16 seconds out of 21.75, that would be 73.6% uptime... plus you occasionally lose some when you have to refresh the SnD (to avoid energy capping) before the uptime from the Rupture is over - which is where my "roughly 70%" estimate comes from.

But yes, the point remains, it's one of the better trinkets out there. DST is better, but nothing else holds a clear advantage.