My question: I'm stuck using 2pc t4 (helm & legs) b/c my guild stopped running Vashj to focus on Hyjal / BT.
(I wound up having 3pc t5 and was next in line to get my t5 helm when they stopped running SSC).
Anyway, ran my gear through all the sheets here at EJ, and all are showing no upgrades for legs or helm until Slayer's.
Is the 2pc t4 really so great that this is true? Or is that extra 3sec of S&D being weighed more heavily than it should?
More of a case of me needing someone to confirm/deny, I suppose. Anyone have any input on this?
It's a pretty big boost as what it is doing is saving you energy which will scale well with gear. I'd guess at some point soon, with the right upgrades and switching things around, you will find the time to drop the 2pc T4. The Upgrades goes through items one at a time, so it doesn't do so well with set or gem combinations, so you might find a better combo. If not, I guess it's correct.
With the current formula in 2.4.0.2 the amount of CR gained froum the trinket is always 100% in a 5cp/5cp cycle, regardless of cycle time.
The new one should correct the issue.
Yeah, I did screw that up, probably why Ashtongue is showing a little high at 3s/5r too. Although what I think the correct formula is...
145*CP*0.2*10*finish/MAX(10*finish,cyclet) or even better
145*CP*0.2*MIN(1,10*finish/cyclet) which better expresses the intent.
The goal was to make sure that if one had a cycle that was less than (10 * # of finishers) seconds, you wouldn't get more than 100% multiplier which could possibly happen with cut cycles in some cases.
The new formulas agree with yours in the general case.
And for those who care...
CP = average combo points of finishers
cyclet = cycle time
finish = # of finishers
I've been testing out the ashtongue trinket since the renewed spreadsheet came out and when looking back at my wws logs I saw something strange. The amount of procs for the trinket were significantly lower than the procs on relentless strikes, which should be about equal?
Here's from the last 3 raids:
Mount Hyjal
Relentless Strikes Effect (Energy) 160
Exploit Weakness 104
Black Temple:
Relentless Strikes Effect (Energy) 270
Exploit Weakness 220
Mount Hyjal
Relentless Strikes Effect (Energy) 222
Exploit Weakness 143
Total
Relentless Strikes Effect (Energy) 652
Exploit Weakness 467
Looking at the descriptions for the two procs:
Talisman:
Equip: 20% chance per combo point for your finishing moves to grant 145 critical strike rating for 10 sec.
Relentless Strikes:
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.
Am I reading the descriptions wrong or whats up? I understand it won't be completely the same, but a 30% variance seems a bit high.
As with other procs like Mongoose or Executioner, the combat log will only display them when the proc is new. In other words, the difference is probably the number of times Ashtongue procced while the buff was still active. I'm hoping the new combat log will display renewed procs so we won't have to worry about that. Anyone who managed to get on the PTR able to check if the new combat log displays this?
I would guess that if you went through the combat log and looked at the time between when one proc started and one ended, 56 times in Mount Hyjal they will be greater than 10 seconds, 50 times in Black Temple, etc.
This is an area I may have to rethink a bit, as some cycles are virtually guaranteed to have a level of overlap. The hard part would be modeling what that overlap should be.
Hmm...Mac users needed them larger or the text was splitting up in the boxes, hence the change. Now they are too big in OO. I'll have to see what I can do about that.
I don't suppose you could set an IF statement on the button sizes when the spreadsheet is loaded?
That way you could dynamically set the sizes based on which program or OS opens the sheet.
I'm not sure if such a thing exists though.
Also, a feature request.
Could you add a checkbox in cells U21-X21 or thereabouts that reads "Include Set bonus in DPS total".
Disabling this checkbox should then disable the set bonus in the dps formula calculations.
This feature would be very useful (to me at any rate) when researching single item upgrades.
Last edited by Zurgat : 02/15/08 at 11:33 AM.
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The drop locations listed for Insidious Bands (Teron Gorefiend) and Deadly Cuffs (Rage Winterchill) are listed wrong in the spreadsheet. BT drop is specified for MH drop and vice versa.
1) I hope to post a new version of the spreadsheet this weekend. Features would be...
Vastly improved Macro performance.
Bug fixes as mentioned here including Ashtongue.
Additional Patch 2.4 items (anything remotely interesting I can find).
New interface to add one of each slot for unmodeled items. Will be of great benefit for pre-Kara rogues and those wanting to know immediately how a new discovery will do.
2) This is to the authors of various Macro code. I have been approached by the developer of a Warlock DPS spreadsheet about using code from this spreadsheet. I have given general approval asking him to cite the spreadsheet itself, authors and developers something like that. If anyone actually has objections to this use, let me know but it seems since we are all trying to do the same thing for the benefit of our respective classes...
3) Future Development. In order to do some of the things I'm going to want to do in terms of calculation accuracy and improved functionality of the Upgrades sheet and the Compare sheet, I've come to the conclusion I will need to remodel the item formats to facilitate the process.
In the process, that would be the best time to revamp the option box.
What I'm looking to do is allow the following options (not a complete list)...
Choose items by rarity (purple, blue, green).
Choose items by item level range.
Condense the instance options down to maybe 5 Mans; T4 (Kara, Gruul, Mags); T5 (SSC, TK, ZA?); T6 (BT, Hyjal, Sunwell).
Do something similar to other item types, although the devil is in the details there.
Allow a new option for "inferior" items. These would include PvP items without much DPS or Druid items that are DPS inferior to normal rogue items of the same level, but if you have been unlucky with drops, you may wish to consider them. It might also include tank type items for those looking to do something different like building an avoidance set.
I'm also planning to expand Source to 4 columns, so that in the future one could see which boss an item drops from as well. So, for example, you might have T6/Black Temple/Najentus or T6/Black Temple/Najentus/Inferior. With 4 fields, it would allow more selective options in the future. The goal being to allow more items to be modeled within the spreadsheet without clogging up the lists so much.
This will take some time to remodel, so there is time for discussion. There are other fields I need to add for proper PPM proc mechanics to work as I want (the main impetus for the change). This is also the time to suggest options for things like "Set Bonus On/Off"
4) After that will be time for the Sheet remodeling as I'd have to add some new fields anyway.
As to the previous post...I wish such an IF statement could be done. The problem is it would likely:
1) Work in Excel on a PC.
2) Not work in Open Office.
3) May or may not work with a Mac.
[*]Condense the instance options down to maybe 5 Mans; T4 (Kara, Gruul, Mags); T5 (SSC, TK, ZA?); T6 (BT, Hyjal, Sunwell).
I would not be in favor of this change. My guild is close to killing Kael. When we do, I'll want to see upgrades from MH, but not BT or SW. With your suggested change, it's all or nothing.
More to the point, I would like to have some way to limit not just by zone, but by boss, too. I realize that might be overkill, but when I am evaluating upgrades currently available to me, I have to do a lot of self filtering out loot from end-of-instance bosses. As examples, early in your T5 career you're killing bosses in both SSC and TK, but you're nowhere near killing Vashj or Kael. Right now there is no way to filter upgrades to show this.
I would not be in favor of this change. My guild is close to killing Kael. When we do, I'll want to see upgrades from MH, but not BT or SW. With your suggested change, it's all or nothing.
More to the point, I would like to have some way to limit not just by zone, but by boss, too. I realize that might be overkill, but when I am evaluating upgrades currently available to me, I have to do a lot of self filtering out loot from end-of-instance bosses. As examples, early in your T5 career you're killing bosses in both SSC and TK, but you're nowhere near killing Vashj or Kael. Right now there is no way to filter upgrades to show this.
Such determinations might be possible when I'm done, at least with respect to the Upgrade sheet. As I said, I want 4 Source columns which will include which Boss drops it, which instance its from, etc. That is primarily to feed into that sheet where one will be able to more readily sort out the upgrades.
The big problem is we are now at 24 distinct check boxes for what gear gets included. Its rather cumbersome and going to just get worse. Unless I find a better way to deal with the selection process, something needs to get trimmed down as the formula is currently so long it covers up about 4 rows of items as I change it.
So, its going to be something is getting trimmed down. Some things are going to be combined. Right now, most people in SSC are also in TK. Most people in Hyjal are in Black Temple almost immediately too. These seem almost a given to be combined. Now, I do want to add item levels to the equation. That's actually another way to limit the items as the end bosses drop higher item levels. All that said, this is still in the early planning stage.
I am Hemo combat swords. The (newest) spreadsheet tells me my Hemo DPS should be 27%. Yet practically every boss combat it is 20% or less. Here is a Nalorakk report, which is a fight where I get the highest DPS, and you can see hemo is only 18% of the damage. Wytryszek - WWS
Any idea what's wrong, and on which side?
Edit: Oh, I think I get it - it's the "Hemo debuff estimate" option. When I uncheck it, the hemo DPS matches reality.
I am Hemo combat swords. The (newest) spreadsheet tells me my Hemo DPS should be 27%. Yet practically every boss combat it is 20% or less. Here is a Nalorakk report, which is a fight where I get the highest DPS, and you can see hemo is only 18% of the damage. Wytryszek - WWS
Any idea what's wrong, and on which side?
Edit: Oh, I think I get it - it's the "Raid hemo debuff" option. When I uncheck it, the hemo DPS matches the reality.
Yup, it adds the raid contribution to Hemo itself.
As for condensing checkboxes, shouldn't be a problem.
The sheet perhaps not working on Mac however, well you can guess the response to that. The sheet should work with as many platforms as possible imo. It is possible to manually type "false" in the set bonus boxes though, surely there might be a way to implement it. Never say it's impossible to an engineer
Last edited by Zurgat : 02/17/08 at 4:46 AM.
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A few notes...
The new "Unmodeled Items" are currently tied to "Sunwell", so you will need to have this enabled to use this feature. I plan to change that in the future, but thats the way it is for now.
The speeding up of Macros is well...amazing...a full Import from another spreadsheet now takes seconds. Upgrade searches still take some time but are much quicker than before.
It should also be noted that I gave mechanics to the new proc effects (guess I forgot to mention this in the patch notes). Shard of Contempt has been shown to have a 45 seconds cooldown. The Shattered Sun Pendants are now assumed to have the same 45 second cooldown although I have found no confirmation for the latter. Should be noted that the effect depends on your Exalted ranking (Aldor/Scryer).
2.4.0.3 dmm
Added
Band of Celerity
Band of Determination
Band of Ruinous Delight
Belt of the Silent Path
Blackened Leather Spaulders
Blade of Life's Inevitability
Blade of Serration
Cloak of the Coming Night
Clutch of Demise
Collar of the Pit Lord
Crossbow of Relentless Strikes
Distracting Blades
Edge of Oppression
Embrace of Everlasting Prowess
Figurine - Khorium Boar
Figurine - Shadowsong Panther
Grip of Mannoroth
Handwraps of the Aggressor
Leggings of the Betrayed
Mounting Vengeance
Nightstrike
Quickening Blade of the Prince
Shoulderpads of the Silvermoon Retainer
Sunrage Shoulderpads
Sunrage Treads
Sunwell Badge Loot - Melee Ring
Swift Blade of Uncertainty
Tameless Breeches
The 2 Ring
The Mutilator
Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer
Tunic of the Dark Hour
Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality
Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery
Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality
Fixed
Shoulder enchant works as none again
Drop locations for Deadly Cuffs and Insidious Bands
Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality formula
Ashtongue Estimated Crit now carries into cycle formula for improved Seal Fate calculation
Hemo personal DPS
Macro performance improved (Upgrades thanks to Arioche!)
New
Interface to add unmodeled items
Checkbox to disable Set Bonuses
German race name support for Armory Import
Actually its a higher lever ring (that still may not be that good) that gives 22 to every stat. New in the patch. My current theory is to add anything remotely Rogue-ish from the patch (including Druid items). Once its been live for a bit (and we see whats final and where it drops), I will likely pare the list down eliminating the non-performers.
Shard of Contempt has been shown to have a 45 seconds cooldown.
If that's true, and if the trinket is 1 PPM like nearly every other "chance on hit" proc is these days, it's more powerful than [Dragonspine Trophy]. Goodbye, days of farming trivial T4 content for a best-in-game trinket -- hello, days of farming trivial heroic 5-man content for a best-in-game trinket! >_<
On the bright side, the trinket with the Battle Trance proc looks to be even more overpowered than this.
If that's true, and if the trinket is 1 PPM like nearly every other "chance on hit" proc is these days, it's more powerful than [Dragonspine Trophy]. Goodbye, days of farming trivial T4 content for a best-in-game trinket -- hello, days of farming trivial heroic 5-man content for a best-in-game trinket! >_<
On the bright side, the trinket with the Battle Trance proc looks to be even more overpowered than this.
Comments on Wowhead (if I recall correctly) said its a 45 second cooldown. Hopefully they know what they are talking about.
Actually its a higher lever ring (that still may not be that good) that gives 22 to every stat. New in the patch. My current theory is to add anything remotely Rogue-ish from the patch (including Druid items). Once its been live for a bit (and we see whats final and where it drops), I will likely pare the list down eliminating the non-performers.
If that's true, and if the trinket is 1 PPM like nearly every other "chance on hit" proc is these days, it's more powerful than [Dragonspine Trophy]. Goodbye, days of farming trivial T4 content for a best-in-game trinket -- hello, days of farming trivial heroic 5-man content for a best-in-game trinket! >_<
On the bright side, the trinket with the Battle Trance proc looks to be even more overpowered than this.
Just out of curiosity would you also say this is the case once we have slayers boots as well. <additional 24 expertise>
I am wondering about how exactly you got the numbers you used for Shard of Contempt. Based on the information I have seen:
45 Second Cooldown
10% chance to Proc
I would estimate 50 seconds between procs with them occuring every 45-55 seconds. On average a rogue hits approximately 2 times per second between MH, OH, SS, WF and Sword Spec.
230 x (20/50) = 92AP
92AP makes it better then Dragonspine, 72 makes it worse then DST.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
I gave it estimated 1.2 PPM mechanics as I had nothing else to go on except the cooldown. If you have good evidence it's really a 10% proc, I will remodel it next version as I used 1.2 PPM as the typical baseline. If so, it would certainly proc more often than modeled.
The same applies to the Shattered Sun necks, I used baseline estimated 1.2 PPM mechanics and 45 second cooldown. For those, I've really got nothing to go on, just that those are probably the most typical mechanics of late, both the cooldown and proc rate could be wrong.
Is the evidence for Shard of Contempt available? Is there a link?
Hmm...looks like Wowhead does have it at 10% clicking on the buff link. So the 10% looks to be a client-side stat.
I gave it estimated 1.2 PPM mechanics as I had nothing else to go on except the cooldown. If you have good evidence it's really a 10% proc, I will remodel it next version as I used 1.2 PPM as the typical baseline. If so, it would certainly proc more often than modeled.
The same applies to the Shattered Sun necks, I used baseline estimated 1.2 PPM mechanics and 45 second cooldown. For those, I've really got nothing to go on, just that those are probably the most typical mechanics of late, both the cooldown and proc rate could be wrong.
Is the evidence for Shard of Contempt available? Is there a link?
I think someone linked the proc in WOWDB: The next generation World of Warcraft database and showed it was 10%, but with a 45 second internal cooldown I would just model it the same way you model something like Warp-Spring Coil, the only difference is the proc is longer.
Currently Warp Spring is modeled at -350 Armor which is basically assuming it procs every 42-43 seconds.
Even if you assume 1.2 Procs per minute you get the same result: (1.2 x 230AP x 20 Seconds)/60 Seconds = 92 AP
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
02/14/08, 3:38 PM
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