I am wondering about how exactly you got the numbers you used for Shard of Contempt. Based on the information I have seen:
45 Second Cooldown
10% chance to Proc
I would estimate 50 seconds between procs with them occuring every 45-55 seconds. On average a rogue hits approximately 2 times per second between MH, OH, SS, WF and Sword Spec.
230 x (20/50) = 92AP
92AP makes it better then Dragonspine, 72 makes it worse then DST.
Yeah, you're right, not sure what I was thinking. With a 1 PPM estimate and 45-second cooldown, it's worth about 70 AP plus 44 expertise rating, or about 180 EP. With a 10% proc rate (whoich Wowhead seems to corroborate) and 45-second cooldown, it's worth about 89 AP plus 44 expertise rating, or about 199 EP.
DST is superior in either case, in fact. 40 AP plus 81 haste rating is about 218 EP.
On the bright side, the difference isn't so great that rogues without DST can't pick up the Shard instead now. Which makes me quite excited about it.
I think someone linked the proc in WOWDB: The next generation World of Warcraft database and showed it was 10%, but with a 45 second internal cooldown I would just model it the same way you model something like Warp-Spring Coil, the only difference is the proc is longer.
Currently Warp Spring is modeled at -350 Armor which is basically assuming it procs every 42-43 seconds.
Even if you assume 1.2 Procs per minute you get the same result: (1.2 x 230AP x 20 Seconds)/60 Seconds = 92 AP
Actually the base formula I use for cooldown with the 1.2 PPM mechanics takes a number of things into account...
First, its a chance on hit, so with miss chances and dodges, that 1.2 PPM is estimated down to 1 PPM, but since one also has 2 weapons going + specials, that brings it to ~3 PPM in actual procs or an average proc every 20 seconds.
I could go into the proof, but the average duration until a proc occurs actually equals the average time between procs (taking into account that droughts can occur) so the equation became (230AP x 20)/(45+20), the value used in the spreadsheet.
Using the same mathematical formula with a 10% proc rate with my own current gear (based on values in the spreadsheet is giving an average downtime of ~5.7 seconds). So (230 x 20)/(45+5.7) = ~91 AP. I'll probably round that to 90 in the estimate section. But I can also do what I did with Ashtongue in the latest update and recalc and adjust it after the fact to give more accurate values for anyone's particular gear setup. The reason to estimate it up front is to give the cycle sheet some attack power to work off.
Anyone noticed a bug with the epic BT/Hyjal gems in the newest Version?
No matter what checkbox I click they don't show up in the dropdown list.
They import from the armory just fine, but for me are not selectable via dropdown.
Anyone noticed a bug with the epic BT/Hyjal gems in the newest Version?
No matter what checkbox I click they don't show up in the dropdown list.
They import from the armory just fine, but for me are not selectable via dropdown.
They seemed to be linked to hyjal, which is rather weird as they are crafted.
Any bind on equip gems should be available all the time unless that quality is disabled.
Bind on pickup gems from heroics i can understand being linked to heroics.
The first socket on [Leggings of the Immortal Night] seems to be bugged. I can select 1 yellow and 2 red and the socket bonus will remain active. (it has 3 red sockets)
It might also be nice to have a %expertise shown in the totals section, instead of resilience perhaps.
Last edited by Zurgat : 02/19/08 at 11:02 AM.
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Actually the base formula I use for cooldown with the 1.2 PPM mechanics takes a number of things into account...
First, its a chance on hit, so with miss chances and dodges, that 1.2 PPM is estimated down to 1 PPM, but since one also has 2 weapons going + specials, that brings it to ~3 PPM in actual procs or an average proc every 20 seconds.
I could go into the proof, but the average duration until a proc occurs actually equals the average time between procs (taking into account that droughts can occur) so the equation became (230AP x 20)/(45+20), the value used in the spreadsheet.
Using the same mathematical formula with a 10% proc rate with my own current gear (based on values in the spreadsheet is giving an average downtime of ~5.7 seconds). So (230 x 20)/(45+5.7) = ~91 AP. I'll probably round that to 90 in the estimate section. But I can also do what I did with Ashtongue in the latest update and recalc and adjust it after the fact to give more accurate values for anyone's particular gear setup. The reason to estimate it up front is to give the cycle sheet some attack power to work off.
The set of gear I have been playing with is the ideal set post Sunwell, which run around 360 Hit Rating and 107 Expertise, aka it assumes that you don't miss, which would realistically drop it below 5 seconds to proc, but 90-93 really is immaterial. In that particular set up, it is actually superior to DST. There is a point of inflection though between ideal T6 and Ideal Sunwell, where DST is better up until that point, and after that Shard of Contempt is better.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
Expertise seems to be broken in the AEP calculator (unless it's actually worth negative .37 agility raid buffed for me, which seems.. unlikely), unless I've screwed something up elsewhere myself
DMM, check out this post and following in the Roguecraft 101 thread. Might want to re-evaluate WF modelling in the spreadsheet; something seems wrong with it. Or if not wrong, then at least different from the Gear sheet.
Expertise seems to be broken in the AEP calculator (unless it's actually worth negative .37 agility raid buffed for me, which seems.. unlikely), unless I've screwed something up elsewhere myself
Depends, if you are looking at the Sunwell gear you can get over the expertise cap, and there would be no additional value.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
Depends, if you are looking at the Sunwell gear you can get over the expertise cap, and there would be no additional value.
I'm in a mixture of T4, badge gear, and PVP gear. And, in any case, even if I were at the cap (which really isn't that high, of course) shouldn't the value be zero and not actually a negative number? Additionally, it's way, way off from unbuffed (where it's 1.32) which leads me to believe it's a bug.
I'm in a mixture of T4, badge gear, and PVP gear. And, in any case, even if I were at the cap (which really isn't that high, of course) shouldn't the value be zero and not actually a negative number? Additionally, it's way, way off from unbuffed (where it's 1.32) which leads me to believe it's a bug.
Something is wrong with the macro, I think. I'm getting a buffed hit value of zero, and I'm 30 points away from the hit cap.
Rerox ---
I believe the Epic gems have always been linked to Hyjal. I noticed that before, but in the current scheme you get one choice. Maybe calling them just BoE and just letting them respond to the Quality boxes is a better bet. When I revamp the Options system, I can better deal with those. My guess is its a legacy from back in the days where if you weren't in Hyjal/BT, there was no access, but now with many guilds AHing them, I agree it should probably change.
Zurgat ---
I'll have to take a look at the logic for socketed items with regards to Leggings of the Immortal Night. It may be that it doesn't handle the case of 3 like sockets correctly as I believe that's the first I've seen like that.
Left ---
As to WF modeling, I just haven't looked at it closely since I've taken over development. I glanced it over before, and I thought it was working correctly (in terms of proccing only off white attacks), but might not be handling the synergy with Sword Spec correctly, still ought to be fairly close, but I'll take a closer look when I find time to work on the sheet next.
Hanos ---
I just tossed that out as a ballpark figure. Like I said, I'll be tossing 90 into the field and then post calculating the value (adding or subtracting relative to 90) to more accurately reflect it. I plan to do the same for Hourglass and other items.
Apps ---
I'll take a look at that. I should probably mention that the spreadsheet does have some issues with Expertise and Armor Pen as it reaches the cap. At one time, you couldn't reach these caps (the sheet was hard-coded to about 7000 armor and there was less gear with armor pen). Now that 0 armor is very reachable (and 0 dodge from Expertise), there are going to be serious issues with Armor Pen procs and Expertise procs as one nears the cap. Because averages fail as one passes the cap, it's going to require a serious remodeling of these 2 effects specific for every item that procs these effects. I have an idea of what I wish to do with it, but it will require some time (and possibly some sheet remodeling). Specifically, that neck which procs and fully eliminates dodges with Expertise by itself is going to mess some things up (Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve - Scryer).
On the bright side, the trinket with the Battle Trance proc looks to be even more overpowered than this.
Searching wowhead shows the buff to be similar to the darkmoon card just substantially more powerful. On the site its not liked to an item yet, I'd assume late sunwell drop but I have yet to see anything mentioned on mmo-champ or worldofraids.
Would it be possible to have a split for the epic gems based on Heroic/Hyjal? It's kind of tedious having to sort through a huge list of (often useless) heroic gems to find the 5agi/5hit gems from Hyjal and so on.
Would it be possible to have a split for the epic gems based on Heroic/Hyjal? It's kind of tedious having to sort through a huge list of (often useless) heroic gems to find the 5agi/5hit gems from Hyjal and so on.
I believe he just answered that question for you.
Rerox ---
I believe the Epic gems have always been linked to Hyjal. I noticed that before, but in the current scheme you get one choice. Maybe calling them just BoE and just letting them respond to the Quality boxes is a better bet. When I revamp the Options system, I can better deal with those. My guess is its a legacy from back in the days where if you weren't in Hyjal/BT, there was no access, but now with many guilds AHing them, I agree it should probably change.
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Puncturing Wounds increases your critical strike chance with Backstab by 10/20/30%, and the critical strike chance with your Mutilate ability by 5/10/15%.
If this change goes live, it should be fairly easy to modify the existing sheet to accommodate it. I believe all you have to do is modify the cell which calculates the crit chance for instant attacks. This is cell I21 in both the "Unbuffed DPS" and "Buffed DPS" sheets.
Of course, you may wish to change the name of the ImpBS talent cell to match the new talent name, but for a quick-and-dirty fix the above *should* work (unless I am missed other places where ImpBS is used in the sheet).
Incidentally, this change gives Mutilate an extra 2-3% damage, putting it more along the lines of combat daggers and ahead of the personal DPS of tri-spec hemo. Coupled with the poison changes, mutilate might become a viable spec again.
Such determinations might be possible when I'm done, at least with respect to the Upgrade sheet. As I said, I want 4 Source columns which will include which Boss drops it, which instance its from, etc. That is primarily to feed into that sheet where one will be able to more readily sort out the upgrades.
Heh, I am glad you're adding boss sources, since right now I am manually adding that info myself.
As for filtering on the upgrade sheet, that will allow you to filter to a single source/boss, which is better than nothing, I guess. Autofiltering won't let you do more complicated subsets that were possible from the gear sheet.
The big problem is we are now at 24 distinct check boxes for what gear gets included. Its rather cumbersome and going to just get worse.
I certainly understand both the GUI issue and the long formula issue, and I have no better suggestions at the moment. I just want to make sure you also understand that many spreadsheet users are in early parts of those raid instance tiers, so being unable to filter out some raid instances and/or bosses will make the sheet less useful for that class of user.
Now, I do want to add item levels to the equation. That's actually another way to limit the items as the end bosses drop higher item levels.
I don't really understand the utility of iLevel filtering. Drops are good because of their stats, not their iLevels. Obviously the two are related, but some drops with high iLevels have bad stats, and vice versa. Maybe I am missing something, if so, please help me out.
The set of gear I have been playing with is the ideal set post Sunwell, which run around 360 Hit Rating and 107 Expertise, aka it assumes that you don't miss, which would realistically drop it below 5 seconds to proc, but 90-93 really is immaterial. In that particular set up, it is actually superior to DST. There is a point of inflection though between ideal T6 and Ideal Sunwell, where DST is better up until that point, and after that Shard of Contempt is better.
Really curious as to why you'd classify an ideal gearset as over the 64 expertise needed to cap the stat. Not implying that you're wrong or that vulajin's post has incorrect information, just looking at your armory and seeing a NE combat rogue with expertise.
I had assumed that you were mutilate at first, which would make sense to be lacking WeX and bring the values in-line with the WeX cap information. However now im wondering what gearset you're looking at that requires that much expertise or which items are so good as to have that extra expertise and still remain ideal.
In the version of the spreadsheet im using, latest I believe, I see the DST as still the best trinket. I may have simply not plugged enough sunwell gear in to reach the point of inflection, i did play with it to check out the nice large numbers so im not sure how much more I could have been missing.
Heh, I am glad you're adding boss sources, since right now I am manually adding that info myself.
As for filtering on the upgrade sheet, that will allow you to filter to a single source/boss, which is better than nothing, I guess. Autofiltering won't let you do more complicated subsets that were possible from the gear sheet.
I certainly understand both the GUI issue and the long formula issue, and I have no better suggestions at the moment. I just want to make sure you also understand that many spreadsheet users are in early parts of those raid instance tiers, so being unable to filter out some raid instances and/or bosses will make the sheet less useful for that class of user.
I don't really understand the utility of iLevel filtering. Drops are good because of their stats, not their iLevels. Obviously the two are related, but some drops with high iLevels have bad stats, and vice versa. Maybe I am missing something, if so, please help me out.
The main thing with ilvl filtering is its an easy way to exclude final bosses as Blizzard tends to add 5 ilvl to their drops. It's a short formula that can be used as an alternate way of parsing items. But, even if I don't utilize it, it's a stat that could be used in the future for "something". So, I'd rather have more info in the item data rather than less. It's also a way to parse low level 5-mans or Heroics from higher ones, if done right.
------
And two more things...
I couldn't replicate the Leggings of Immortal Night bug. It seemed to be working on my version. So, if those having issues could tell me which version of Excel they are using and which version of the spreadsheet, it may help.
Same with AEP calculations. They seem to be functioning from my seat. Also please include your reported buffed miss rate for your gear set.
Really curious as to why you'd classify an ideal gearset as over the 64 expertise needed to cap the stat. Not implying that you're wrong or that vulajin's post has incorrect information, just looking at your armory and seeing a NE combat rogue with expertise.
I had assumed that you were mutilate at first, which would make sense to be lacking WeX and bring the values in-line with the WeX cap information. However now im wondering what gearset you're looking at that requires that much expertise or which items are so good as to have that extra expertise and still remain ideal.
In the version of the spreadsheet im using, latest I believe, I see the DST as still the best trinket. I may have simply not plugged enough sunwell gear in to reach the point of inflection, i did play with it to check out the nice large numbers so im not sure how much more I could have been missing.
There are currently 2 different possible dodge rates that have been discussed, and the general feeling is that the boss dodge rate is closer to 6.5%, at -0.25% dodge per point, you would need 6.5/0.25 = 26 Expertise to get to the cap, which is 104 Expertise Rating. In the "ideal gear set" I referred to you get 68 from gear (44 - Trinket, 24 - Boots) and 39 from talents, which puts you at 107 Expertise including talents, which while slightly over the cap is better then the next best option.
Ideal Gear set for reference (based on what I have seen)
MH - Warglaive
OH - Warglaive
Ranged - Crossbow of Relentless Strikes
Helm - Duplicitious Guise (Glinting)
Neck - Hard Khorium Choker (Rigid)
Shoulders - Slayers Shoulderpads (Double Rigid)
Back - Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape
Chest - Carapace of Sun and Shadow (Rigid, Glinting, Shifting)
Wrist - Slayer's Bracers (Rigid)
Gloves - Gloves of Immortal Dusk (Double Glinting)
Waist - Slayer's (Glinting)
Legs - Leggings of the Immortal Night (Shifting, Glinting, Glinting)
Boots - Slayer's Boots (Glinting)
Ring - Stormrage Signet Ring
Ring - Hard Khorium Band
Trinket - Shard of Contempt
Trinket - Blackened Naaru Sliver
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
From the [url="http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/test-realm-patchnotes.html"]This is cell I22 in both the "Unbuffed DPS" and "Buffed DPS" sheets.
Old formula:
=MIN(1,(M8+IF(instatk="bs",impBS,0)))*(1-I18-I19)+Q28
New formula:
=MIN(1,(M8+IF(instatk="bs",impBS,0)+IF(instatk="mut",impBS/2,0)))*(1-I18-I19)+Q28
There are currently 2 different possible dodge rates that have been discussed, and the general feeling is that the boss dodge rate is closer to 6.5%, at -0.25% dodge per point, you would need 6.5/0.25 = 26 Expertise to get to the cap, which is 104 Expertise Rating. In the "ideal gear set" I referred to you get 68 from gear (44 - Trinket, 24 - Boots) and 39 from talents, which puts you at 107 Expertise including talents, which while slightly over the cap is better then the next best option.
Ideal Gear set for reference (based on what I have seen)
MH - Warglaive
OH - Warglaive
Ranged - Crossbow of Relentless Strikes
Helm - Duplicitious Guise (Glinting)
Neck - Hard Khorium Choker (Rigid)
Shoulders - Slayers Shoulderpads (Double Rigid)
Back - Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape
Chest - Carapace of Sun and Shadow (Rigid, Glinting, Shifting)
Wrist - Slayer's Bracers (Rigid)
Gloves - Gloves of Immortal Dusk (Double Glinting)
Waist - Slayer's (Glinting)
Legs - Leggings of the Immortal Night (Shifting, Glinting, Glinting)
Boots - Slayer's Boots (Glinting)
Ring - Stormrage Signet Ring
Ring - Hard Khorium Band
Trinket - Shard of Contempt
Trinket - Blackened Naaru Sliver
362 hit imo is too much, a waste on trash. I'd rather socket with 10agi and go use hit food.
Also the best ranged slot item should be the Legendary (Thank god we run with only 2 hunters )
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
There are currently 2 different possible dodge rates that have been discussed, and the general feeling is that the boss dodge rate is closer to 6.5%, at -0.25% dodge per point, you would need 6.5/0.25 = 26 Expertise to get to the cap, which is 104 Expertise Rating. In the "ideal gear set" I referred to you get 68 from gear (44 - Trinket, 24 - Boots) and 39 from talents, which puts you at 107 Expertise including talents, which while slightly over the cap is better then the next best option.
Ideal Gear set for reference (based on what I have seen)
362 hit imo is too much, a waste on trash. I'd rather socket with 10agi and go use hit food.
Also the best ranged slot item should be the Legendary (Thank god we run with only 2 hunters )
Sorry I meant 362 with Hit Food. However, if you wanted to scale down the hit you could use 5 Hit/5 Hit in the Shoulders, Bracers, and Neck. 362 fully buffed is where I want to be personally for a boss, you may not want to go for the cap, but honestly you will be really close unless you can get 10 Agi gems, which are a DPS downgrade anyway for bosses, which is where your DPS matters the most.
Originally Posted by Zurgat
My gear list comes pretty close to yours, i haven't really sorted the trinkets yet as i only recently found the shard of contempt.
Yes, the legendary bow is the best, however that isn't an upgrade I am planning on getting any time soon (I will be lucky to get the Warglaives before the expansion with their current drop rate). I hadn't see the Golden Bow of Quel'thalas before, so I haven't run the numbers on that.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
02/18/08, 5:07 PM
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