Probably give those an option box to be unchecked in a remodeling. I know some people will want to optimize gear for Kael'thas, so Warp Slicer certainly needs to stay. I haven't had much time to work on the spreadsheet since last update, so the item/option reworking isn't very advanced.
This weekend I'm hoping to get a new version out with the following features:
1) Improved proc modeling (where some procs will no longer be just estimates and will adjust with one's stats).
2) Various bug fixes as mentioned in the thread.
3) Any new 2.4 PTR updates/items.
and hopefully...
4) Improved Armor Penetration and Expertise specific calculations that account for situations where procs bring these past the caps. Going to have to be specific code for all such proc items. This will also clear up the issue up with the use of averages for armor penetration.
Any user interface and general layout improvements will likely have to wait for a future update.
Hmm nvm, I thought the ashtongue trinket was bugged. Why is it modelled as 100 crit rating on top of having bonus dps on the right hand side?
Something is weird about it. If you delete the 100 crit rating you put in for it, the bonus dps comes out differently than other bonus dps models you have listed, like tsunami talisman. Like the romulo trinket says 11/12 dps bonus on the trinket sheet and if you delete the 35 hit rating and swap to the trinket on the buffed sheet, it's exactly 11/12 like it should be. The ashtongue trinket doesn't do this.
Did you model it as a base 100 crit rating and then depending on spec the bonus gains/losses the actual dps?
Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality also doesn't populate in my upgrade list, even though it shows as a buffed upgrade if I manually select it. Perhaps this is related to the "second item" bug I remember you mentioning before (I am not sure if this is intended to be fixed in the current version - if not my apologies).
re: Warp Slicer et al., I guess I can see that use, though I personally rarely (read: never) use the spreadsheets to optimize my other equipment fight by fight. Perhaps if there were some way to designate that certain items not be copied over for gear planning.
Apoq---
Yes, that's how Ashtongue is modeled in 2.4.0.3. That way the cycle sheets take the approximation into account for cycle determination and it's fine tuned based on your cycle after the cycle is selected. Ashtongue was the pilot model for the more accurate proc mechanics. I hope to address all the other proc items this weekend and do the same sort of thing.
One problem with modeling procs is that to accurately model it, you need to know the cycle, but the cycle is selected in part due to one's stats. So in the past, for items that were modeled by formula, the cycles didn't use those values to determine the correct cycle. Items that were estimates, were assessed by the cycles, but obviously didn't scale with stats since they were estimates. By using an estimate and adjusting after the fact, I get the best of both worlds. The cycles use the approximation to find the closest cycle and then the accurate modifier is then equated.
Dinesh---
I'll have to look at that. It should show up as an upgrade. Something might not be working as expected with the new upgrade code implemented to speed things up.
Short answer: No, the modeling is fine. Offhand sword > offhand dagger (usually), even if the dagger's stats are a bit better.
Long answer: I am not going to do your research for you if you are too lazy to read the numerous posts in this thread and the other two rogue theorycraft threads which speak to the benefits/disadvantages of mixing weapon types. (And trust me, there are many posts on this topic.)
I did not ask for doing someone to do research for me - i asked about the issue and if this is already known. You can give an answer to a question - without doing a research if you are inside a topic.
@Ashere: I have no weapon spec at all. I'm shadow step specced 11/9/41.
But how can a weapon be inferior to another weapon just because of the type - if the type seem to be nonrelevant. I have no weapon spec neither any talent that would favor swords, so for me is is just the pure stats that count. Only judging the stats the dagger should do more DPS.
I'll search all 4 threads and 200 posts if i can find any hints why my assumption is wrong.
I did not ask for doing someone to do research for me - i asked about the issue and if this is already known. You can give an answer to a question - without doing a research if you are inside a topic.
@Ashere: I have no weapon spec at all. I'm shadow step specced 11/9/41.
But how can a weapon be inferior to another weapon just because of the type - if the type seem to be nonrelevant. I have no weapon spec neither any talent that would favor swords, so for me is is just the pure stats that count. Only judging the stats the dagger should do more DPS.
I'll search all 4 threads and 200 posts if i can find any hints why my assumption is wrong.
Weapon type is irrelevant if you haven't specialized in any weapon type. I get a ~13 dps gain going from merciless oh to trackers blade using the gear spreadsheet. DPS sheet show a ~14 dps gain. Interestingly there's about 100 dps difference between the sheets(4/5 t5 sun king mh dst+wsc, same raid buffs).
Apoq---
Yes, that's how Ashtongue is modeled in 2.4.0.3. That way the cycle sheets take the approximation into account for cycle determination and it's fine tuned based on your cycle after the cycle is selected. Ashtongue was the pilot model for the more accurate proc mechanics. I hope to address all the other proc items this weekend and do the same sort of thing.
One problem with modeling procs is that to accurately model it, you need to know the cycle, but the cycle is selected in part due to one's stats. So in the past, for items that were modeled by formula, the cycles didn't use those values to determine the correct cycle. Items that were estimates, were assessed by the cycles, but obviously didn't scale with stats since they were estimates. By using an estimate and adjusting after the fact, I get the best of both worlds. The cycles use the approximation to find the closest cycle and then the accurate modifier is then equated.
Dinesh---
I'll have to look at that. It should show up as an upgrade. Something might not be working as expected with the new upgrade code implemented to speed things up.
If you've modelled it correctly it puts it ahead of the WSC and only 5 dps shy of a DST with my T6 gear and mace/sword spec. Does that seem right?
If you've modelled it correctly it puts it ahead of the WSC and only 5 dps shy of a DST with my T6 gear and mace/sword spec. Does that seem right?
Well, Ashtongue has the new modeling. I plan to apply the new modeling scheme to DST and WSC this weekend, so that might not be the fairest comparison yet. It should also be noted that if the suggested cycle is 3s/5r (as opposed to a longer cycle like 4s/5r or 5s/5r) which has a cycle time only a little over 20 seconds, Ashtongue might be somewhat optimistic as the formula assumes you can time your finishers (both the 3s and the 5r) to be at least 10 seconds apart.
Given energy cycles, this might not always be possible and it might overvalue it a little as sometimes you may overlap procs not to overcap your energy. The 4s/5r or 5s/5r have enough slack in them that it shouldn't be a problem. The problem creeps in when your binomial cycle is close to 20 seconds (and 3s/5r very close to that).
So the short answer is Ashtongue should be correct now (with some qualification with 3s/5r cycles) but other proc effects have not been brought to the same correctness. That issue hopefully will be corrected this weekend (aside from the energy overcap issue).
Working Theories of Theorycrafting as of 2.3 "- Hit Cap: 28% +hit required to not miss vs lvl 73 bosses, meaning you need 442 hit rating to cap. 5/5 Precision reduces this by 79" 442-79=363
363 < 423
Working Theories of Theorycrafting as of 2.3 "- Hit Cap: 28% +hit required to not miss vs lvl 73 bosses, meaning you need 442 hit rating to cap. 5/5 Precision reduces this by 79" 442-79=363
363 < 423
you're saying 2.4 changes this? how?
So when you said "Even at 423 hit rating total and percision", you weren't adding the 79 from precision? Because if you're looking at the totals box, it does add it for you.
So when you said "Even at 423 hit rating total and percision", you weren't adding the 79 from precision? Because if you're looking at the totals box, it does add it for you.
oh, complete truth! didnt see that! just not used to it adding up cause of the ingame tooltip :P
also another problem, I can't use 2 band of devastation even though they're not unique or unique-equipped or anything like that ingame.
The formula in cell J19 of the Buffed DPS is inconsistent with the same cell on the Unbuffed DPS sheet. I appears as though expertise is being ignored when calculating the dodge chance of finishers in the Buffed DPS sheet, but is being considered in the Unbuffed DPS sheet.
Naturally this is normally not noticeable with any build that includes Surprise Attacks since this automatically sets the dodge chance of finishers to zero. However I noticed the oddity when playing around with a Mutilate build.
When using a Mutilate build, for some reason manually increasing the dodge chance of Mutilate has zero effect on overall Buffed DPS (Unbuffed seems to behave normally though). I can set a dodge chance of 99% and it'll be the same Mutilate DPS as at 6.5%.
This appears to not affect SS or BS though, so I suspect it is a bug in the Mutilate cycles. I'm having trouble tracking the exact bug down though but thought perhaps you could figure it out more easily than I could.
But how can a weapon be inferior to another weapon just because of the type - if the type seem to be nonrelevant. I have no weapon spec neither any talent that would favor swords, so for me is is just the pure stats that count. Only judging the stats the dagger should do more DPS.
I suspect you've forgotten to set your race correctly in the sheet and are (incorrectly) benefitting from the human racial (+expertise with swords). If I remember rightly, the default race is human.
When using a Mutilate build, for some reason manually increasing the dodge chance of Mutilate has zero effect on overall Buffed DPS (Unbuffed seems to behave normally though). I can set a dodge chance of 99% and it'll be the same Mutilate DPS as at 6.5%.
This appears to not affect SS or BS though, so I suspect it is a bug in the Mutilate cycles. I'm having trouble tracking the exact bug down though but thought perhaps you could figure it out more easily than I could.
I found the problem. Actually didn't really affect calculations as there is no buffed Expertise rating items right now. C146 on the Buffed Cycles sheet was referencing the Unbuffed DPS dodge rate.
oh, complete truth! didnt see that! just not used to it adding up cause of the ingame tooltip :P
also another problem, I can't use 2 band of devastation even though they're not unique or unique-equipped or anything like that ingame.
The uniqueness of Rings issue is one I'm considering fixing in the future as part of the item data remodeling. Since very few rings are not Unique, it was expedient for the previous developers to treat them all that way. Probably won't see that change in this next update though.
Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality also doesn't populate in my upgrade list, even though it shows as a buffed upgrade if I manually select it. Perhaps this is related to the "second item" bug I remember you mentioning before (I am not sure if this is intended to be fixed in the current version - if not my apologies).
re: Warp Slicer et al., I guess I can see that use, though I personally rarely (read: never) use the spreadsheets to optimize my other equipment fight by fight. Perhaps if there were some way to designate that certain items not be copied over for gear planning.
Found the problem:
The fix proposed for last version (to speed up performance) reintroduced the problem as the list was populated with references rather than values.
Changing the UpgradeCheck Macro in Modul3 about 15 lines in fixes the problem:
Itemlist2.Add item needs to read...
Itemlist2.Add item.Value
How does spreadsheet calculate flametongue totem effect. My knowledge about this totem is it use base speed of weapon when calculating its damage and proc also instant attacks.(wf was hotfixed but flametongue still proc)
And where is scorch debuff.
Grace of air + flametongue totem do more damage with base setting than wf totem. But if flametongue isn't modelled right I can't trust these results. Also I have founded some odd result with stormstrike and flametongue totem it proc three time not once. So does mutilate behave same way becouse its also isntant attack with both weapons.
I found the problem. Actually didn't really affect calculations as there is no buffed Expertise rating items right now. C146 on the Buffed Cycles sheet was referencing the Unbuffed DPS dodge rate.
Yeah, but it was undervaluing expertise when trying to determine buffed AEP values, which is how I originally recognized something wasn't quite making sense.
Figured out a different way, but maybe this is still useful:
Any chance of you adding in a way to simply pull item stats into the correct cells by simply inputting itemid?
I raid as combat mutilate, and every time I want to see a dagger upgrade's worth, I have to go back and forth, back and forth to copy cell-by cell, which is really quite irritating, but I also don't have much experience with excel, so I couldn't easily change it myself.
Just seems to me you could add an "ItemID" row of cells at the end of each slot, put in the itemID, and voila, it looks through the unhid sheets to find that itemid and inserts stats!
Or, simply add a "Show all Weapons in Dropdown box" option, if that's easier.
It wouldn't be so bad if the hid sheets had the same cell order/amount, so you could just copy/paste a whole row, but...
Thanks
Edit: I think I figured out how to do it easier, but could someone just explain to me the easiest way anyhow, to make sure I've got it?
Also, sheet bugs out when I try and use Vindi's Pendant of Triumph.
I caught a bout of the flu this weekend, so didn't get as far as a hoped. Nevertheless, I did implement a fair number of fixes so I'm posting what's done (as I'm not likely to finish the rest until at least next weekend).
A couple notes, because of the name change to Improved Backstab, it may not import correctly from previous sheets. you should double-check that.
Posted 2.4.0.4 dmm
Added
Assassin's Alchemist Stone
Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas
Ravager's Wrist-wraps of the Bandit
The Frost Lord's War Cloak
Changed
Improved Backstab is now called Puncturing Wounds and gives a crit bonus to Mutilate
Shard of Contempt - higher uptime due to 10% proc chance
Shifting Tanzanite - new stats
Slayer's Belt - new stats
Slayer's Boots - new stats
Slayer's Bracers - new stats
Fixed
Buffed cycle sheet reference to Unbuffed Dodge rate (did not affect calcs since there is currently no buffed Expertise).
Expertise now applies to Buffed finisher dodge rate when one does not have Surprise Attacks.
Upgrade Macro now does not skip some rings, trinkets or gems (error re-introduced in 2.4.0.3).
Removed junk variable references.
Set WordWrap to False to fix Mac Comment issues.
Slice and Dice and Blade Flurry were double multiplying global damage multipliers like Murder.
Slayer 2 piece bonus was not applying to Mutilate cycles.
Windfury improvements
Removed
General's Leather Bracers (no longer obtainable)
Marshal's Leather Bracers (no longer obtainable)
New version telling me Grand Marshall weapons are a buffed upgrade to Blade of Savagery. Unbuffed shows them as a massive drop but the buffed dps giving me all kinds of crazy OH upgrade suggestions like GM weaps, Spiteblade, etc.
There appears to be some sort of problem concerning the Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality modeling in version 2.4.0.4.
With my current gear and 19/42 swords combat, the spreadsheet calculates buffed dps at 1673 (using DST+WSC) for a 3s/5r cycle.
If I leave a trinket slot empty (using DST only), dps drops (as expected) to 1618.
Equipping the Ashtongue Talisman in the empty slot drops buffed dps to 1562, which is odd, considering the fact that the new Alchemist´s Stone (which gives a flat 54 crit rating) performs better than the ATL (which gives 100 critrating in the spreadsheet).
I am using OpenOffice, so no armory imported items, cycle is always 3s/5r.
Version 2.4.0.3 did not behave that way, it showed the Ashtongue trinket as slightly superior to WSC.
I am seeing the same behaviour, (combat sword spec, best of slot gear except MH glaive), and going from no trinket to Ashtongue trinket actually lowers dps by another 100. (Using excel with Armory import of this character, and changing no other options)
I guess for now stick with 2.4.0.3. Something wacky is going on with a calculation somewhere. Guess that's what happens when you try to code with the flu.
02/28/08, 5:40 PM
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