Capek

I was pretty confused by why, after importing my character into the spreadsheet, I was showing 79 hit difference between my unbuffed total hit and my actual, in game unbuffed hit.
I finally figured this 79 was from 5/5 precision.

Seeing how precision is added to hit in the spreadsheet in this way, should I be aiming to reach 442 on the sheet if I want to reach 363 in game?

 

Eowyndra

Yes.

You can also take a look at the +% Hit in the buffed section. If it says 28% you're capped.

 

drumbum

I tested Sinister Calling on Live. The 115% multiplier is definitely affecting agility from gear, unlike Uaskedforit's claim to the contrary:

• With no gear equipped: Agility 181
• With all gear equipped: Agility 489 (181+308)

On PTR I was also able to get these values without Sinister Calling (I'm of course not going to respec on Live just to test this completely):

• With no gear equipped: Agility 158
• With all gear equipped: Agility 426 (158+268)

After I summed up the agility on my gear by hand, I get 268. Multiplying by 115% you get: 268*1.15=308.2

He is probably misinterpreting the spreadsheet. The value he claims is the agility from gear must already have been multiplied by 115%.

 

Hatt

There seems to be quite a difference in fist/sword combat spec from 2.4.0.3 to 2.4.0.4. Not exactly sure what would cause this change.

using a 16/45 fist/sword spec. changing from talon of azshara to talon of the phoenix.
2.4.0.3 as a 11 dps increase.
2.4.0.4 as a 7 dps decrease.

 

Uaskedforit

You are correct. I did not notice the agility added from Mongoose in the spreadsheet. Now the math works as expected with 509 (179+330) with Sinister Calling and 443 (156+287) without. Thanks for the leg work!

 

Dontmindme

I can't tell you exactly, but a few things have been improved.

In other news, I've been working on making the Spreadsheet more "adaptable". Given that we probably have an Expansion coming up in 3-6 months, I've been doing some "behind-the-scenes" work with defining variables. For example, I've started replacing a lot of 14's with APtoDPS in anticipation of the future. I've also been trying to simplify a few things by trying to make all things use the same variables where possible.

I discovered a few more areas where 1.3 was hard-coded in the cycle sheets and this should be a small increase to the Slayer 4 piece bonus.

As to Resilience, probably not immediately, although the changes I'm making might make that easier to implement.

Currently, I'm working on revamping Extra Attacks (WF, Blinkstrike, Sword Spec). In this process (and after a few web searches) I believe the 2% proc rate the spreadsheet is using is probably wrong and is more likely to be 5%. If anyone happens to still have a Blinkstrike laying around, I might be interested in a little quick testing. I'd like to know if it can still proc off itself and whether it seems to be a PPM effect or a % based proc. For now, I think I'm just going to change that to 5% until more information is available.

As a small aside, I'm also running into a problem with the old Next Stat calculations. For the next version, I'm going to be freezing the Open Office AEP values so that I can implement a fixed Windfury model. This will also allow me to implement proper PPM mechanics. I'll need to substantially recode most of the NextStat section. It's hard to do until I finish the ppm modeling. It's a long process and the best way I think is to implement PPM, get a new version out, then fix NextStat. Macro AEP will still work, just non-Macro AEP will not change. It should not affect the calculations (except for a minor amount of PPM adjustment).

I hope to get a new version out this weekend.

 

Dontmindme

New version now posted...

2.4.0.5 & 2.4.0.5NA & 2.4.0.5OO

2.4.0.5 dmm

Added
Support for all level mobs
Selection box for Sayge's Dark Fortune of Damage (1-10%)

Changed
Assassin's Alchemist Stone (new stats)
Adrenaline Rush - out of the energy equation. Now adds a prorated portion of a 5-pt Eviscerate every 5 minutes.
Accurate Extra Attack modeling (takes into account procs off procs of different type)
Improved Windfury modeling (based off the Extra Attack improvements)
Improved Unbuffed/Buffed DPS chart (work in progress)
Blinkstrike increased to a 5% proc rate and treated as a same hand extra attack.
Expose Weakness is now considered to have a 90% uptime
Slice and Dice damage is now considered part of "white" damage (to match up better with WWS parses)
Blade of Serration (new damage and speed)
The Mutilator (new damage and speed)
Default Mutilate now has Puncturing Wounds instead of Improved Poisons

Fixed
NextStat calc work (in progress)
Pawn string (hopefully).
Vengeful Gladiator's Leather Gloves (crit rating)
Mace Spec crit multiplier no longer applies to offhand attacks when a Mace isn't equipped.
Slayer 2-pc cycle fixes

Removed
Most "other" buffs. No longer affects characters above level 63.

 

Dontmindme

I made a lot of behind-the-scenes changes. Hopefully nothing was really screwed up in the process.

It should be noted that AEP values will no longer adjust without the Macro as the Extra Attack and Windfury mechanics have thrown that module for a loop. I hope to recode that soon.

As to Windfury, it doesn't take into account the possibility that more than one attack may benefit from the buffed AP. It does now synergize with Sword Spec (and Blinkstrike) through alternating proc potential. Formulas should be accurate to infinity.

I plan to make the breakdown at the top of the Talent and Gear Buffs sheets match better with WWS (since most guilds use it these days). I've made a starting step by adding SnD damage to the white damage.

I also didn't get around to changing the new Shattered Sun Pendant of Might (Scryer version) to the arcane damage proc. I have heard that it crits, but I do not know if this is affected but spell resist mechanics or is just treated as melee damage or some combination of both. If anyone has any more useful information...it would help.

Moving Adrenaline Rush out of the energy cycle seems to give better (less energy starved) cycle recommendations. I chose to just prorate this as Eviscerate damage and leaving the cycles as they lie. I'll probably revisit this at some point, but for now it should be an improvement.

 

flaminghomer

Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality seems to be bugged. "Other DPS" shows about -400 DPS if I equip it.

 

Dontmindme

Ah, missed two references to NextStat...new version upcoming...

 

shandor

buffed & unbuffed hit&miss percentages show up as 0.00% in the breakdown section in version 2.4.0.5.a.

 

Dontmindme

Can you elaborate? I'm not seeing the same thing. Which sheet? Which cells?

 

shandor

using OpenOffice, manually selected gear

Gear_Buffs G6, I6, Q6 and R6 show "0,00%"



Unbuffed_DPS M17 and Buffed_DPS M7 show the actual hit percentage value (23,71% unbuffed, 24,98% buffed)

UnBuffed_DPS B25 (which would show missrate %) already calculates 0,00%, the same goes for Buffed_DPS B19.

 

Dontmindme

Thanks for the elaboration. I'll load up Open Office tonight and see if I can figure out why it's doing that.

 

Professor Hurt

Just a quick note to give props to dmm for his work on this sheet. It's been an excellent resource for me as my guild progresses through T5/T6.

 

Donoma

It looks like the problem is with the LEFT function in BossLevel (Global Var B6).

 

Bungle

I was fiddling with the spreadsheet looking at how mutilate will compare with combat, and I got results I didnt expect.

At first I thought it was because of the level of my gear (badge loot/za etc), and that combat would scale bettter, but then I made a comparison using current end game gear (Im not sure on whats what with melee sunwell loot) and to my surprise, mutilate managed to beat combat swords.

The gear set I used for the intitial combat swords spec to get a baseline number was S3 swords, arcanite steam pistol, cursed vision of sargeras, t6 legs/shoulders/chest/gloves, choke of endless nightmares, shadowmoon destroyer's drape, belt of one hundred deaths, insidious band, nynjahs tabi boots, stormrage signet ring, signet of primal wrath, madness of the betrayer, dragonspine trophy. This may not be optimal but it seems pretty close to me. Gemmed with pyrestones mostly, and RED, with 2 amethysts to meet requirement.

The buffs I used were, Sunderx5, FF, CoR, 1000agi Expose Weakness, Mangle, Bloodlust, Imp SoE, Imp WF, UR, GOTW, Imp BoM, Imp BoK, Flask, hit food. 6200 boss armor.

This nets me 2085.05 dps.

When I change the swords to the vengeful shanker, and the vengeful mutilator, and change the spec to mutilate, I get 2097.13 dps. You can eek out a bit more dps from it too if you reoptimise gear/gems for mutilate. I appreciate if I used warglaives then swords would win by a good margin, but there isnt any legendary daggers so it would be an unfair comparison.

So basically my question is, if the sheet is overestimating mutilate as I believe it is, by how much is it likely to vary to real results? Or is this how it will actually play out in practice? Conventional wisdom would suggest not, Im just curious as to if theres an issue with the sheet or if I really want to spec my rogue mutilate.

 

Left

Are you talking pre- or post-2.4? The sheet is incorporating the 2.4 talent change of Improved Backstab to Puncturing Wounds, which has the potential to bring a significant DPS increase to Mutilate. If you are loading the default Mutilate build, it is including this talent.

As a general note, mutilate isn't particularly well modeled. Thus far, nobody has been able to hit combat numbers with a Mutilate build in practice, so nobody has yet bothered to try to improve the (arguably difficult) Mutilate modeling. The DPS Spreadsheet is the best we've got, and with the change is putting Mutilate into the same range as combat. Still, some issues need to be addressed, such as the way SnD affects Mutilate cycles and the damage per energy of various Mutilate finishers.

That is interesting that you are finding it coming out comparable or superior at end-game gear levels. I guess this warrants some closer comparisons/further inspection. Normally, we'd say "cross-check with the gear sheet", but the gear sheet doesn't model Mutilate.

My guess is that in practice Mutilate won't hit Combat numbers because Combat has more cooldowns to blow and many T6 fights are short (3-5 minutes) such that cooldowns can really make a difference. Mutilate also is going to have issues with consistent cycles, so you may not be able to realize its full potential. But if it does, I'd love to spec it, so I for one will be looking into this more.

Has anyone on the PTR tried it out? How accurate is the spreadsheet anyway?

 

Dontmindme

There are some probable deficiencies with the Mutilate modeling.

1) I do not ever recall seeing a double-finisher (besides SnD) model show up. I'm not sure the Mutilate cycle modeling has the option for double finisher cycles and its possible that these would be superior with Imp SnD and may relate to part of that problem as a longer SnD cycle is probably better suited to 2 (3 if you count SnD) finishers.

2) Mutilate cycles tend to vary a lot more from an optimum cycle, so the cycles seem to pretend that one will never cap out energy nor be energy starved. Given the vast fluctuation in luck with Seal Fate, its probably optimistic.

All that said, it will be interesting to see what happens on Live with the new Puncturing Wounds talent.

Since one can adjust the mob level to any level now, if one figures out a Servant or Dire Maul's ghost armor, and sets buffs accordingly, we have an interesting new gauge for spreadsheet accuracy for specs like Mutilate if one fights a Servant with a tank or a DM ghost.

Someday, I'd like to take a stab at rewriting some of the Mutilate code, but at the moment, I'm recoding the basics to make the sheet more Expansion friendly (so we won't have months of an unusable spreadsheet while thousands of cells are updated). It's also giving me time to reassess some of the basic formulas. I'm particularly proud of the new Extra Attacks and Windfury formulas. They are now rewritten to allow infinite procs off a different extra attack's proc. Windfury is treated as just another extra attack with an added damage adjust for each WF attack to account for the additional attack power.

Last night (after posting), I also corralled a Shaman to help me test WF and the AP proc with some 2-4 damage swords. It does seem to have a small time component to it. Too small to get another MH attack (but Extra Attacks can get the AP as well as offhands) and it seems to work on specials. I'm thinking it might be 0.5 seconds, but I still need to fully parse the combat log and run some calculations from it. I'll probably try to add that next pass. Ald, if you read this thread, what's your guess on the time frame?

As one last aside...I was looking at the Slayer 4-pc bonus on Wowhead and it seems to use the same Mod Aura code as Opportunity, Surprise Attacks and Aggression leading me to believe it is probably an additive bonus to these and not multiplicative as believed. Anyone with Slayer 4-pc available for testing? If someone could pick up some starter weapons, use some specials on Level 1's; let me know your attack power; which of these talents (and how many points) you have; whether you have Murder (if a murderable mob); the damage range you are getting; and which weapon you are using; I can figure out whether its truly multiplicative or additive. It may be a small difference, but people seem to sometimes go crazy over 1 or 2% differences on the spreadsheet.

 

mctl

Hi,

I stumbled into something odd that I would like to share with you. Maybe you could explain why I have these results. I am myself a regular raiding rogue, my guild currently trying to down Lady Vashj in SSC.
With the upcoming 2.4 patch, I intend to take the most of it and especially spend all my badges of justice on the new epic items that will be available.

To this end, I ran the DPS spreadsheet with the new loots (fists, crossbow, chest, belt, leggings, ring) and compared two templates :
- one with the fists (Vanir's), 19/42/0
- one with the fist main-hand and a sword off-hand (Akil'zon's), 16/45/0
I was pretty surprised with the results as the Fist/Sword came first, 4 buffed dps ahead of Fist/Fist.
The spreadsheets with the foreseen equipment can be found here : >>>Fist/Sword<<< and >>>Fist/Fist<<< (Fist/Fist)
As you can see, the group composition was : Combat Rogue, Feral Druid, Fury Warrior, MM Hunter and Enhancement Shaman.

But here's the thing, my guild doesn't have a Balance Druid or a Retribution Paladin and when we raid, we usually group 3 rogues with a Fury warrior and an enhancement shaman. Additionally, Curse of Recklessness is never put on a boss since no offtank warrior has spent 5 talent points in Improved Demoralizing Shout to nullify the AP boost given by CoR.
If I disable those buffs, I end up with Fist/Fist being ahead of Fist/Sword by only 1 buffed DPS.
It wasn't the case with the 2.4.0.4a spreadsheet and I hope you would have an explanation on why I have these results.

Is the Sword Proc that powerful, even with a low-DPS, low-min/max damage sword (that is, compared to Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery stats) or is it the new WindFury calculation that changes it dramatically and maybe also impacts the Sword Proc ?

 

Bungle

Thanks for the answers, and yes I was indeed talking post 2.4. And I did also go to cross check with the gear sheet, stuck in all the gear then got to assasination talents and they werent there, alas.

One thing worth mentioning is that I did get combat to come ahead of mutilate in the sheet when I used a smaller set of buffs. I've tried to replicate this so I can give the specifics but I can't seem to come up with the same parameters I had been using when fiddling. As far as I remember it was the same gear, just no expose armor, cor and resto shaman instead of enhancement. I shall have a further toy around and see if I can get it again.

Suffice to say though, it seems that mutilate is at least viable, even if it doesnt match combat. Sadly I can't test the sheets accuracy on ptr as my rogue doesnt actually have any daggers.

 

Dontmindme

The Sword Spec proc is a very powerful talent. 2.4.0.5 saw much improved extra attack mechanics which should have put sword spec closer to where it belongs. Previously, it was modeled based on a Blue post awhile back where people theorized that no proc extra attacks would proc from other extra attacks which turned out not to be true. So Sword spec saw almost a 20% improvement in conjunction with Windfury (5% almost becomes 6%, it's a little less because of dodge/miss diminishing returns). I suspect that when other proc mechanics are implemented more properly (where additional attacks should increase the proc rates, it will boost a little more). This would have been implemented sooner if the spreadsheet were more forgiving of changes in some parts.

In short, I'm not surprised at all if a slightly weaker sword were to outdo a better fist even with the loss of 5 talent points.

 

Dontmindme

Donoma is correct, that fixes the problem in Open Office.

Go to Format --> Sheet --> Show
Click on Global Var and go to the formula in Cell B6
Remove the LEFT and the rest leaving...
=$Talents.R12
and the problem gets fixed

I posted a version (B) with this fix as otherwise, Open Office version is broken.

 

jmredmon

I did this in OpenOffice, however it alone didn't fix it for me, I had to go to B5 on the Global Var sheet and change BossLevel and CharLevel to their respective cells instead. I dunno if their is a refresh that I could have done to avoid having to do this, but just thought I should let you know.

 

shandor

Thanks a lot, it is working now.