Hi, Great sheet. I'm having a problem with S&D, I'm getting more DPS with 0 points in this talent than 3 points... Is this normal?


I'm a undead rogue and my build is 43/0/18. I woould like to test the DPS increase with 41/20/0, but the DPS drops everytime I use 3 points in S&D.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

Insightful, perhaps you'd like to explain?


This would make me think my original post is right, but I know I jumped to a conclusion as well and am willing to accept that it's possible I might be wrong as well. I mean, I'm not a spreadsheet expert by any means, so I don't want to start pissing off the guy who is trying to help the community.

We all know hit rating is ridiculously good for combat rogues, and after being reminded of that, I took a step back for a second. Anyway, time to check out this fixed version and see what I get.

There was originally a post that advertised gold selling or player rentals or something, never did click the link. It was apparently deleted.

That makes a bit more sense.

The anomaly of mutilate DPS with regards to changing talent points (most notably Imp.SnD) is due to an averaging of the possible cycles.
If you look at the rows 213/214, 228/229 and 243/244 in the cycle sheets (normaly hidden) you will see that this computes an average of the cycles that lie within 10% of the top DPS cycle.
These averages are then propagated back to the Unbuffed/BuffedDPs sheets.

What happens if you deselect Imp. Snd is that the other cycles fall outside the 10% margin; essential no averaging takes place an you see a higher DPS.

The download link is missing from the opening post.

As was pointed out to me when I raised this issue, it's basically because the sheet has to model specific cycles and it's simply that SnD cuts have not been modelled for Mutilate builds. As Improved Slice and Dice does not actually change the cycle the sheet simply assumes that the cycle takes longer (since SnD is up for longer). You'll notice the exact same thing happening when using the 2-piece Netherblade set bonus.

It will still give you the right gear/gemming info and you can simply cut SnD yourself and at worst you'll get no more dps than you would if you didn't take the talent.

Modelling Mutilate cycles is something that seems very difficult to do since the very nature of the build is that it is highly proc-dependant. You can have a 2-4s/4-5r cycle that could take take only 14 seconds to complete and yet generates up to 26 seconds of SnD time. The same cycle could either take 25 seconds to complete or only generate 18s of SnD (even with Improved SnD).

All things considered, the sheet does a damn fine job of modelling a very difficult-to-model talent build.

Could someone just do a quick explanation for why s3 mace in mainhand with mace spec = more dps then s3 sword in mainhand with sword spec? 5% chance to extra hit vs... 5% more damage on crits ._.

S3 sword and swordspec shows as higher DPS than the mace / mace spec for me. Are you sure you've entered it right?

Completely sure.

Switching from sword+sword to mace+sword (5/5 sword and mace spec) gives a +1.38 unbuffed dps, 3.22 buffed.
sword off-hand seems to be better then mace off-hand though!

Check what was in offhand during your testing? that could be a place to find the answer for your question.

Other possibility is the wider dmg variance on main hand mace vs sword, could be that since the dmg can go a bit higher and crits would incrase that a little bit more, that is the issue.

~Dreshla

Its because you have sword AND mace spec going at the same time. Offhand sword proc gives a chance for main hand hit with sword spec. With sword spec and mace spec, offhand sword proc gives a chance for main hand hit that when critting does more damage, thus the DPS difference. Personally I prefer all of the filler talents though.

Not that I really get your points... but nope, same results whatever off-hand and/or spec for off-hand I have if any. Just tried with both sword and mace spec with a *fist* in off-hand and I get the same results, mace mainhand > sword mainhand

You are probably high on crit - which increases the value of mace spec, and/or low on hit - which decreases the value of sword spec.

yea but even if you're on avrage 50% crit rate in raid enviroments, that'd make mace spec what... half as good as sword spec? unless there's something fundamentally wrong with my logics here~

This is hard to diagnose without seeing your specific gear and build. I checked it with both the default Tier 4 and Tier 5 gear sets with the default Combat Swords build (switching Mace spec when necessary) and the main hand S3 Mace is showing behind by 20.4/23.5 unbuffed dps and 37.0/43.2 buffed dps.

Got it, yeah, it's all ranged socket bonuses, found the problem. For those looking for a fix before next update:
Sheet Sockfit; Cell P43; formula following "RangedStats," should read 17 and not 16.

I have a question about tsunami talisman on the dps-sheet.

When I select tsunami talisman, 10 +hit and 38 crit rating is displayed on the sheet. However, there isn't any +AP displayed on the sheet. Generalizing from the other proccing items, I expected an up-time averaged +AP displayed on the row of the tsunami talisman. Is tsunami talisman correctly implemented?

The AP portion is currently implemented after the fact in the (Un)Buffed DPS pages. It does not get displayed in the other portion as that would create a circular reference. I am considering other options, but that's still in the idea stage. For example, I've been thinking that by estimating the proc AP (adding that to the cell) then adjusting later for more accurate AP estimates (and subtracting the estimate), the calculations would get a little more accurate.

RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting (my current saved spreadsheet)
think that's currently set to have just changed from vengeful slicer to pummeler with increase in unbuffed and buffed dps~

would be great if someone could just explain the logics behind this -_-;;

I have a quesion about hemo debuff estimates checkbox. Are the estimates considered in 25-man raiding environment, thus with calculated % of uptime? I would like to know how accurate that measure is, and reason I rise this question is that I've noticed a huge difference in calculations between this, and aldriana's spreadsheet (I get +18,25 DPS increase with 11/27/23 build, where in aldriana's spreadhseet it goes -80DPS or so).

the Crit Factor with the mace is 2,2062, the Crit Factor with the sword is 2,1012 thus all attacks yield a higher dps than with a sword.

I am not sure if the sword-spec-modelling is right, since the added crit-damage seems to produce more dps than the sword spec.

It seems that the margin increases significantly with better gear and with stacking "crit-damage".