Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Rogues

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01/18/08, 8:20 AM   #51
Lekter
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Uldum (EU)
Hi, Great sheet. I'm having a problem with S&D, I'm getting more DPS with 0 points in this talent than 3 points... Is this normal?


I'm a undead rogue and my build is 43/0/18. I woould like to test the DPS increase with 41/20/0, but the DPS drops everytime I use 3 points in S&D.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

Offline
Old 01/18/08, 5:49 PM   #52
magicp
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by Nurru View Post
The post above mine has to be a joke.
Insightful, perhaps you'd like to explain?


Well I have 333 hit and set the spreadsheet to eat spicy hot talbuk and It is still recommending me to use Talon of Azshara (which would overcap me).
This would make me think my original post is right, but I know I jumped to a conclusion as well and am willing to accept that it's possible I might be wrong as well. I mean, I'm not a spreadsheet expert by any means, so I don't want to start pissing off the guy who is trying to help the community.

We all know hit rating is ridiculously good for combat rogues, and after being reminded of that, I took a step back for a second. Anyway, time to check out this fixed version and see what I get.

Offline
Old 01/18/08, 6:53 PM   #53
saedo
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by magicp View Post
Insightful, perhaps you'd like to explain?
There was originally a post that advertised gold selling or player rentals or something, never did click the link. It was apparently deleted.

Canada Offline
Old 01/18/08, 7:41 PM   #54
magicp
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by saedo View Post
There was originally a post that advertised gold selling or player rentals or something, never did click the link. It was apparently deleted.
That makes a bit more sense.

Offline
Old 01/19/08, 9:48 AM   #55
Karmon
Piston Honda
 
Human Rogue
 
Teldrassil (EU)
Originally Posted by Lekter View Post
I'm a undead rogue and my build is 43/0/18. I woould like to test the DPS increase with 41/20/0, but the DPS drops everytime I use 3 points in S&D.

The anomaly of mutilate DPS with regards to changing talent points (most notably Imp.SnD) is due to an averaging of the possible cycles.
If you look at the rows 213/214, 228/229 and 243/244 in the cycle sheets (normaly hidden) you will see that this computes an average of the cycles that lie within 10% of the top DPS cycle.
These averages are then propagated back to the Unbuffed/BuffedDPs sheets.

What happens if you deselect Imp. Snd is that the other cycles fall outside the 10% margin; essential no averaging takes place an you see a higher DPS.

Offline
Old 01/19/08, 11:05 AM   #56
Wandatin
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Hyjal
The download link is missing from the opening post.

Offline
Old 01/19/08, 1:57 PM   #57
Dontmindme
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Icecrown
Ok, so I have a test version for Mac users using Excel for Mac (at least those that did support VB). I have removed all the controls except the Combobox for talents. I need to know if Mac users can use this to change their talent builds from the pulldown. Should this work, I should be able to restore all the rest of the functionality for the use of those comboboxes throughout the sheet.

RogueDPS_2_3_2_9test.xls

and hmm...looks like I deleted more than I thought when I copied new version info on the front page...

Last edited by Dontmindme : 01/19/08 at 2:07 PM.

Offline
Old 01/20/08, 5:59 AM   #58
hannigaholic
Piston Honda
 
Human Death Knight
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
Originally Posted by Karmon View Post
The anomaly of mutilate DPS with regards to changing talent points (most notably Imp.SnD) is due to an averaging of the possible cycles.
If you look at the rows 213/214, 228/229 and 243/244 in the cycle sheets (normaly hidden) you will see that this computes an average of the cycles that lie within 10% of the top DPS cycle.
These averages are then propagated back to the Unbuffed/BuffedDPs sheets.

What happens if you deselect Imp. Snd is that the other cycles fall outside the 10% margin; essential no averaging takes place an you see a higher DPS.
As was pointed out to me when I raised this issue, it's basically because the sheet has to model specific cycles and it's simply that SnD cuts have not been modelled for Mutilate builds. As Improved Slice and Dice does not actually change the cycle the sheet simply assumes that the cycle takes longer (since SnD is up for longer). You'll notice the exact same thing happening when using the 2-piece Netherblade set bonus.

It will still give you the right gear/gemming info and you can simply cut SnD yourself and at worst you'll get no more dps than you would if you didn't take the talent.

Modelling Mutilate cycles is something that seems very difficult to do since the very nature of the build is that it is highly proc-dependant. You can have a 2-4s/4-5r cycle that could take take only 14 seconds to complete and yet generates up to 26 seconds of SnD time. The same cycle could either take 25 seconds to complete or only generate 18s of SnD (even with Improved SnD).

All things considered, the sheet does a damn fine job of modelling a very difficult-to-model talent build.

Offline
Old 01/20/08, 6:05 AM   #59
Sqrpshr
Banned
 
optional
Blood Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account
Could someone just do a quick explanation for why s3 mace in mainhand with mace spec = more dps then s3 sword in mainhand with sword spec? 5% chance to extra hit vs... 5% more damage on crits ._.

Offline
Old 01/20/08, 6:22 AM   #60
songster
Chief Passenger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Originally Posted by Sqrpshr View Post
Could someone just do a quick explanation for why s3 mace in mainhand with mace spec = more dps then s3 sword in mainhand with sword spec? 5% chance to extra hit vs... 5% more damage on crits ._.
S3 sword and swordspec shows as higher DPS than the mace / mace spec for me. Are you sure you've entered it right?

Great Britain Offline
Old 01/20/08, 8:43 AM   #61
Sqrpshr
Banned
 
optional
Blood Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by songster View Post
S3 sword and swordspec shows as higher DPS than the mace / mace spec for me. Are you sure you've entered it right?
Completely sure.

Switching from sword+sword to mace+sword (5/5 sword and mace spec) gives a +1.38 unbuffed dps, 3.22 buffed.
sword off-hand seems to be better then mace off-hand though!

Offline
Old 01/20/08, 8:44 AM   #62
Dreshla
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Shadowsong
Originally Posted by Sqrpshr View Post
Could someone just do a quick explanation for why s3 mace in mainhand with mace spec = more dps then s3 sword in mainhand with sword spec? 5% chance to extra hit vs... 5% more damage on crits ._.
Check what was in offhand during your testing? that could be a place to find the answer for your question.

Other possibility is the wider dmg variance on main hand mace vs sword, could be that since the dmg can go a bit higher and crits would incrase that a little bit more, that is the issue.

~Dreshla

Offline
Old 01/20/08, 9:10 AM   #63
Sqrpshr
Banned
 
optional
Blood Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Dreshla View Post
Check what was in offhand during your testing? that could be a place to find the answer for your question.

Other possibility is the wider dmg variance on main hand mace vs sword, could be that since the dmg can go a bit higher and crits would incrase that a little bit more, that is the issue.

~Dreshla
wouldnt avrage be avrage, either way?~

and I've checked both mace+sword mace+mace sword+sword sword+mace, same outcome

Offline
Old 01/20/08, 9:10 AM   #64
Devil Warrior
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Death Knight
 
Llane
Originally Posted by Sqrpshr View Post
Could someone just do a quick explanation for why s3 mace in mainhand with mace spec = more dps then s3 sword in mainhand with sword spec? 5% chance to extra hit vs... 5% more damage on crits ._.
Its because you have sword AND mace spec going at the same time. Offhand sword proc gives a chance for main hand hit with sword spec. With sword spec and mace spec, offhand sword proc gives a chance for main hand hit that when critting does more damage, thus the DPS difference. Personally I prefer all of the filler talents though.

Offline
Old 01/20/08, 9:16 AM   #65
Sqrpshr
Banned
 
optional
Blood Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Devil Warrior View Post
Its because you have sword AND mace spec going at the same time. Offhand sword proc gives a chance for main hand hit with sword spec. With sword spec and mace spec, offhand sword proc gives a chance for main hand hit that when critting does more damage, thus the DPS difference. Personally I prefer all of the filler talents though.
Not that I really get your points... but nope, same results whatever off-hand and/or spec for off-hand I have if any. Just tried with both sword and mace spec with a *fist* in off-hand and I get the same results, mace mainhand > sword mainhand

Offline
Old 01/20/08, 9:58 AM   #66
Feist-Mok
Bald Bull
 
Feist-Mok's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by Sqrpshr View Post
Not that I really get your points... but nope, same results whatever off-hand and/or spec for off-hand I have if any. Just tried with both sword and mace spec with a *fist* in off-hand and I get the same results, mace mainhand > sword mainhand
You are probably high on crit - which increases the value of mace spec, and/or low on hit - which decreases the value of sword spec.

United States Minor Outlying Islands Offline
Old 01/20/08, 12:36 PM   #67
Sqrpshr
Banned
 
optional
Blood Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Feist-Mok View Post
You are probably high on crit - which increases the value of mace spec, and/or low on hit - which decreases the value of sword spec.
yea but even if you're on avrage 50% crit rate in raid enviroments, that'd make mace spec what... half as good as sword spec? unless there's something fundamentally wrong with my logics here~

Offline
Old 01/20/08, 12:37 PM   #68
Dontmindme
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Icecrown
This is hard to diagnose without seeing your specific gear and build. I checked it with both the default Tier 4 and Tier 5 gear sets with the default Combat Swords build (switching Mace spec when necessary) and the main hand S3 Mace is showing behind by 20.4/23.5 unbuffed dps and 37.0/43.2 buffed dps.

Offline
Old 01/20/08, 1:51 PM   #69
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer> Emeritus
 
Hamlet's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
The socket bonus on Barrel-Blade Longrifle (or perhaps on the ranged slot generally, I don't know) seems to be broken.

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
Please don't PM requests for advice on UI or specific gear choices.

United States Offline
Old 01/20/08, 2:44 PM   #70
Dontmindme
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Icecrown
Originally Posted by Arawethion View Post
The socket bonus on Barrel-Blade Longrifle (or perhaps on the ranged slot generally, I don't know) seems to be broken.
Got it, yeah, it's all ranged socket bonuses, found the problem. For those looking for a fix before next update:
Sheet Sockfit; Cell P43; formula following "RangedStats," should read 17 and not 16.

Offline
Old 01/20/08, 6:56 PM   #71
robfang
Von Kaiser
 
robfang's Avatar
 
Orc Rogue
 
The Venture Co (EU)
I have a question about tsunami talisman on the dps-sheet.

When I select tsunami talisman, 10 +hit and 38 crit rating is displayed on the sheet. However, there isn't any +AP displayed on the sheet. Generalizing from the other proccing items, I expected an up-time averaged +AP displayed on the row of the tsunami talisman. Is tsunami talisman correctly implemented?

Offline
Old 01/20/08, 7:27 PM   #72
Dontmindme
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Icecrown
The AP portion is currently implemented after the fact in the (Un)Buffed DPS pages. It does not get displayed in the other portion as that would create a circular reference. I am considering other options, but that's still in the idea stage. For example, I've been thinking that by estimating the proc AP (adding that to the cell) then adjusting later for more accurate AP estimates (and subtracting the estimate), the calculations would get a little more accurate.

Offline
Old 01/21/08, 4:50 AM   #73
Sqrpshr
Banned
 
optional
Blood Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
This is hard to diagnose without seeing your specific gear and build. I checked it with both the default Tier 4 and Tier 5 gear sets with the default Combat Swords build (switching Mace spec when necessary) and the main hand S3 Mace is showing behind by 20.4/23.5 unbuffed dps and 37.0/43.2 buffed dps.
RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting (my current saved spreadsheet)
think that's currently set to have just changed from vengeful slicer to pummeler with increase in unbuffed and buffed dps~

would be great if someone could just explain the logics behind this -_-;;

Offline
Old 01/21/08, 6:11 AM   #74
Batory
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Proudmoore
Hemo debuff estimates

I have a quesion about hemo debuff estimates checkbox. Are the estimates considered in 25-man raiding environment, thus with calculated % of uptime? I would like to know how accurate that measure is, and reason I rise this question is that I've noticed a huge difference in calculations between this, and aldriana's spreadsheet (I get +18,25 DPS increase with 11/27/23 build, where in aldriana's spreadhseet it goes -80DPS or so).

Offline
Old 01/21/08, 7:06 AM   #75
Rerox
Piston Honda
 
Rerox's Avatar
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Proudmoore (EU)
Originally Posted by Sqrpshr View Post
think that's currently set to have just changed from vengeful slicer to pummeler with increase in unbuffed and buffed dps~

would be great if someone could just explain the logics behind this -_-;;
the Crit Factor with the mace is 2,2062, the Crit Factor with the sword is 2,1012 thus all attacks yield a higher dps than with a sword.

I am not sure if the sword-spec-modelling is right, since the added crit-damage seems to produce more dps than the sword spec.

It seems that the margin increases significantly with better gear and with stacking "crit-damage".

Offline
Closed Thread

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Rogues

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Best possible DPS in Cheeky's Spreadsheet Midnight Hunters 267 11/03/08 6:14 AM
Mage DPS Spreadsheet by Yes Yes Class Mechanics 11 07/12/07 10:35 AM
Enhancement DPS Spreadsheet Silverspring The Dung Heap 2 06/15/07 11:04 PM
Hunter lvl 70 DPS spreadsheet Solaris Public Discussion 12 12/03/06 6:09 AM