Mynea

Murder and Dirty Deeds should bring a 110-damage kick up to 134-135 damage. This also implies that your hemo debuff was not increased by Dirty Deeds, though Murder contributing 2% of 42 would be small enough to get lost in the rounding.

 

Dontmindme

Hmm...something must have changed since the PTR, maybe when they made Hemo be affected by Hemo.

 

drumbum

Rupture does NOT consume Hemo and does not receive any benefit from it. (I tested this as well while I was in Blasted Lands.) I believe only instant damage attacks can consume Hemo, not bleed effects, so this makes sense.

As for Eviscerate, my guess is it's also increased by 42, although I didn't test it at the time. However, I can't think of any other possibly way Blizzard could have designed it.

 

dazed420

For as far as I can remember the hemo debuff has always been a straight plus dmg modifier never anything more. Never has a bleed effect gained from hemo as well.

 

Left

Another quick item. I don't think this affects anything, but the "DPS" cell in the red block on the "Buffed Cycles" sheet doesn't pull from the correct location for Mutilate cycles. The current formula is:

However, cell J283 is "Number of Finishers". Mutilate "DPS" is the next cell over - K283. Thus, the corrected cell formula would be:

Like I said, I don't think this cell is actually used elsewhere, so it's probably not a big deal. Also, if/when we go to the new cycle setup, this cell formula will be changing anyway, so fixing it may be low priority.

 

Ferrat

First of all I would like to say thanks for all the theorycraft guys that put in the countless hours of work for us each week, without which I would not be half the PvE rogue I am. I mean you took 99% of the stuff we need to know and put it into one execl sheet. It feels like cheating. You guys are the only reason I really fell in love with how intricate the game was. By uping my Dps little by little. If you can't already tell i am a PvE player.

Two Questions for you, I was using the Shard of Contempt last night to try it out over the Ashtounge Tailsman. The other rogue in my guild and me are typically very close and with my two upgrades i thought i would be able to be consistently on top now. However i noticed somthing about using the Shard. Although i think on Average it is better if you do not use your cool downs in the right way, It is hard to deny that popping all your cooldowns at the right time e.g. while having the Tailsman up throws off the averages that are used in the sheet. Is there any compensation for that or anyway that it can be compensated for? Or is it compensated for and i just played like shit last night?

Anyways to my point it is about the calculation of the racial abilities. It says that Bloodelfs can do more then Trolls on a consistent basis. I should be pumped cause I am playing a bloodelf. But I think there might be a little more that we can look into about the racials.

Correct me if I am wrong but it looks like the extra 4 strength makes almost a 2dps increase with high lvl gear on your sheet that I have been testing on (rogue.radical sheet). My point is it takes the average time dps and spreads it to the beginning for bloodelfs. Also i don't know how the average 30 energy every 2 minutes translates into 1730.14 damage.

I am always an elf in games but I always want to be the best too (PvE is what I am talking about), and it looks like Trolls are it for Horde. I know some say but what about Orcs, No raid healer wants to see a melee with a MS type Debuff on him for any time, I know we get overhealed alot because many healers switch too us, but to expect it is a problem.

So now the problem is on the sheet I love that is says Bloodelfs are the best with very good gear. Cause I am at end game and love that I have the best race to go along with it. However I think Trolls are better and I don't know if this is possible to represent in the sheet or not. But this is how I tried to justify it to myself.

I know this could be very wrong and I am trying to do some of my own number crunching based on the sheet and what I know. Although when I am at work I would never be able to put in the time to really go completely through how the sheet works with all the macros.

My simple caluclations are based on the Avg Sinister strike over 2 minutes. Which would be appropriate on a infinately long fight. However we have to remember with many fights the durations are much lower like 3 to 6 minutes.

Also with the pause and buffing to classes at the beginning of bosses it would be very hard for a bloodelf to save 3 mana taps before the boss. This is the only way that you would be able to use the
Avg SS/120 seconds. But lets remember too that mana tap is only effective on bosses with mana. Many end raid bosses do not have mana.

1) So I guess my first point is on a lot of the bosses Mana Tap is useless. Which is minus 15 Dps on its own . Troll's racial works on any boss.

2) Second point is that really the bloodelf talent starts after 1 minute and one second into the fight.

2 minute cycle is right based on the cooldown on arcane torrent. So with the bloodelf we are already 1 minute and 1 second ( 1 second is for the global cooldown which apparently is not supposed to be there but is for me) behind bear minimum. That is if you use your mana tap as soon as the 30 second cooldown is up and pop it before anything else. I don't know if there is any way to calculate that into the spreadsheet and think it would be really hare to do so. Unless you could base the fights of a specific time frame, anywhere from 3-6 minutes seems pretty average with some very long fights. So although this sounds funny it means you would get 2 arcane torrents in the first three minutes and 1 second. And then after this settle into a 2 minute rotation. But then again a troll gets 2 full racials in 3 minutes and 10 seconds which outweighs the bloodelf cooldown.

3) It is easy to make the troll Racial way more effective on 90% of boss fights, and the Troll Racial can be popped when entering the fight or in my case as soon as you get hit by some boss abilites.


Troll Racial is different and as crazy as it seems is why I am rerolling for it to be eventually my main.
Also the Spreadsheet had to pick an average haste for 3 minutes which I think is the only way you could really do it. don't forget popping other trinkets while using the Troll Racial is very nice or other cooldowns such as haste.

But you know as well as I we take a lot of ticks from dots AoE's and many other combat hiccups. Maybe it would be possible to change the average haste for a troll.

As far as I understood so far it is 20% haste for 10s every 3 minutes on the spreadsheet.
With how a Troll Racial works this means that on Average you are at 70% health when you pop Beserking every three minutes.

Troll Racial = 10%haste +33%(1 - (targets health %/100)) with a max cap or 30%
I know this means that the troll racial could make the haste be 43% but that is why it is capped when you hit 40% health. So i put the with a max 30% cap

This means a Troll reaches his max potential in haste anywhere from 0.1%-40% health. Anywhere in this range he is then at 30% haste for 10 seconds.

Now let’s go over the conversion from % haste to haste rating. Like many other attributes in wow, it is 15.77 haste rating for 1% haste.

So ((20%Haste * 15.77 Haste Rating/Haste*10seconds) / 180seconds) is how we calculated the Troll Racial bonus. Or what I thought they did to the sheet.

This gives us a passive17.52 haste rating on average, which is what the sheet says.

I did a calculation that I thought really could be applied to 90% of fights based on our fluctuation in health.
Now keep in mind that means that sometimes we wait to get more out of our racial but it is still beneficial and that is what I will try to prove why.

Let’s add a buffer of 20 seconds to the 3 minutes. Now keep in mind that this is an average and is not what the beserking has to be used in if you wait 30 or 40 seconds sometimes to make sure your health gets low that is all part of the average. To be honest I think 20 seconds is more then enough average time but I will time it in my raid tonight.

So with the added 20 second average we have to assume that we will wait till our health gets a little lower. my guess is with 0-40 seconds at some point your health will be at least 55% on a lot of fights to be honest I think we can get lower then that especially if you do it on purpose (which I don't recommend). Making it harder on Raid healers would be ridiculous. But let’s assume 55% because that also gives us some leeway with potential better or worse health.

So at 55% and with an extra 20 seconds we get

From Troll Racial to get a % we can do
10% + 33%(1-55/100) = 24.85

Now use it in the new 20 second delay rotation
We then get
(24.85*15.77*10) / 200 = 19.59 passive haste.

If entered into the spreadsheet this passive haste is better then a bloodelf's racial with makes me pissed cause I am going to reroll for it. Cause I am a nut. But attempting to be good takes dedication. Also keep in mind one big thing the Trolls can do this on all bosses not just some. It is like a 20 dps increase to have a troll over a BE on these fights without mana.

Also you need 1 button to activate the troll racial compared to 4 for the Bloodelf racial. Which doesn't sound that important over a fight but for many downie people like myself who are focusing on rotations, haste pots, procs on trinkets, energy conservation for rotations, Slice and dice times, personal health and popping drums anything simpler is much better.

I have no idea if any of this stuff has been covered before or if I am just rehashing old stuff. But I didn’t find it on the forums and I also don’t mind to be corrected. So if anyone knows differently or why the sheet is like that I would love to know. And will get back to the forums. Don't know if there is much that can be done about it but still thought it might be helpful.

Thanks Mistrtumnus BE rogue Dethecus
Formally Ferrat, god I want my name back.

 

Xaoc

The Orc debuff isnt something to shy away from. Its 15s of 50% less healing, which shouldnt be of any concern to you. If its an AoE heavy fight, be as cautious as you can when you use it. Its there is little no AoE, it shouldnt matter because the likelihood of you taking dmg is slim.

The thing that really holds the Troll racial back, is the fact that its a 3min racial, and everything else is a 2min one.

[e] Speeling iz phun

 

Ferrat

Thanks for not flaming me guess these forums are different from the WoW ones.

But yeah i am still learning and i understand what you are saying about the Orc racial i just find in a lot of the fights we do take a lot of AoE damage. Maybe i just misunderstand what a lot is. But the 3 minute point you made is a good answer for me.

Thanks for that info but do you also think that the haste proc could be bumped up using that formula or not really?

Also would love to know what you guys thought about bloodelf as a rogue race. i am still rolling Troll but if I learn more about the bloodelf and the troll maybe i won't need to.

 

jarek771

I'm haveing a hard time getting the sheets to pullup while im here at work. During my downtime I wanted to go in and tinker with my gear and spec and such as the use for the spreadsheet to get my dps upwards, but however all I have here at work is Excell Viewer, and I can not go and download anything onto the PC's here due to admin restrictions. Dose anyone know of a Flash or Java online site that will let me load the sheets and use them on the internet?

 

Dontmindme

In terms of flaming, you did pretty much what people expect on these forums. You discussed a matter with some depth and analysis without resorting to touchy-feely terms like "It feels like X is better".

In terms of racial modeling, off the top of my head, the troll racial is modeled as though you only reach the first Tier (or in other words you do not take much damage). There are a couple reasons for this. First, generally one is trying to avoid damage and, many fights, rogues avoid taking a whole lot. Second is that when we take damage, it often comes unpredictably and probably doesn't correspond to when to timer is up. Third, with good healers, one gets topped off before one can react.

This doesn't mean that this is necessarily correct for all fights. Certainly if you are in fights where you are taking more damage and able to pop your racial most of the time on the 2nd tier as it becomes available, it becomes more valuable. And as you pointed out, not all mobs have mana pools. So there are very likely times when different races will benefit more from a particular fight.

At some point, I would like to add more user-controllable options which would include things like increasing the racial haste rate. This would probably come as part of a serious Option revamp, but I'll honestly say that I'm not sure when I might get to it. (Of course, when I grind the last 6k to Shattered Sun Exalted, I'll probably have a little more coding time).

So, I guess in short, there is some interpretation to be made to spreadsheet results. Clearly if one were to regularly get double the haste, the results are low-balling that racial. Just as has been extensively discussed in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet topic concerning movement and how yellow damage receives a small boost at the expense of white damage (resulting in a slight dip in the value of Haste and Hit in favor of Crit and Agility).

 

Dontmindme

I'm not personally aware of anything that would allow you to do that unfortunately.

 

Xaoc

Google lets you upload spreadsheets, but I dont think it allows any of the macros to run.

 

saedo

Could use a remote desktop of some form into your home computer.

 

Mikhael

DMM, in the next spreadsheet version, could you make the upgrade search for gems obey the metagem requirements? It produces rather incorrect results otherwise.

 

Capek

Do the character animations that accompany a proc, either 'on use' or otherwise, eat in to DPS time as they appear visually to do? (for example the Shard of Contempt heroism proc and Blade Flurry cause one to sheathe their weapons momentarily and raise their hands above their head)

If so does this have a cumulatively negative effect when using your trinkets/blade flurry/adrenaline rush at the same time?

 

Yavon

Looking for advice on rotation and skill usage to increase dps on boss fights. Any suggestions?
Currently I am using 3s/5r as my rotation. Waiting until most of my procs are up (because I don't use any /use trinkets (also using exalted neck from SSO faction Aldor type.) And using BF in one set of procs and then AR in another when said buffs are up again.

Should I use Haste Potions with BF? or save for AR?

Anything else I am missing guys?

 

drumbum

No. That's purely a visual effect, and shouldn't have any effect on actual swing timers, etc.

 

Dontmindme

I'll have to think about that one and see how easy it is to do that for Gems and not Gear. By switching that by default, I've cut down on the "Your spreadsheet is stupid, it says X inferior item is better than Y decent item" posts. We still get a few of those when people switch items manually, or when Set bonuses turn on or off, but now the Meta-gem activation won't skew the upgrade buttons. I'm going to try to get a new version up with as many things as I can today or tomorrow. Not sure how long the necessary bug fixes will take, and thus, whether I'll have time to look into that this round or not.

 

Radmsc

Blame me if this has been noted before. I went 20/0/41 this weekend to have some fun in the Battlegrounds and got asked to join an heroic Magisters' Terrace. I wanted to look what CP cycle was the best and entered my spec in the latest version of the spreadsheet.

I noticed my DPS going down in stead of up when entering the last talent point in Shadowstep. Any idea what's causing it?

 

drumbum

It make seem counterintuitive, but it seems like Shadowstep is a decrease in DPS for Hemo. Shadowstep costs 10 energy, so if you use it with Hemo, then you're basically looking at a 45 energy Hemo that does 20% more damage. Unfortunately, this is actually worse DPE than just using Hemo without Shadowstep, not to mention you're spending more energy to get a combo point.

Hemo: X damage for 35 energy, or 0.02857*X DPE.
SHS+Hemo: 1.2*X damage for 45 energy, or 0.02667*X DPE.

You can probably just disable the point in Shadowstep and use that as your guide for the best cycle, and just avoid even using Shadowstep except for movement.

SHS is an increase in DPE for Backstab though, because of its higher energy cost. I'm not sure how it would work out with finishers, because Relentless Strikes complicates it somewhat, but I think it's not worth using on finishers either, again due to low energy cost.

 

Maurice2u

I happened to pick up the Quickening Prince blade out of H-MgT the other day, and I notice in game when I equip it, my listed dps (char sheet) goes up by 1 over using my standard MGQ. It seems the game is giving an obscene amount of credit to the 126'ish armor pen on that sword, while any calculations I make (and the spreadsheet, mind you) put it as a severe loss (like 5 dps).

Any thoughts on why the in-game dps on the char sheet would do this? I'm just a touch confused on this one. At least it looks nice for wandering around town, heh.

 

Left

[Quickening Blade of the Prince] has 8 more attack power than [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]. This may account for your "1 DPS" difference as displayed on the character sheet, as long as (as I assume) you are referring to the listed "DPS" of your main hand weapon.

However, don't be deceived: the in-game tooltip does not (to my knowledge) take into account anything except attack power when it derives this DPS number. It certainly doesn't take into account armor penn., as the number listed always assumes a zero armor (no mitigation) target. Crit, hit, expertise, etc. are also not a part of the number. Thus, the slight difference in attack power will cause that in-game tooltip "DPS" to go up, when in fact the hit, crit, and increased offhand damage of MGQ make it the better item.

EDIT: @ Prof. Hurt, yes, that's what I meant. Fixed.

 

Professor Hurt

I believe he means the MGQ (Merciless) is better, just to avoid confusion. Too much typing "LFG MGT group!".

 

drelidan7

I am sorry if the title of my post is misleading, or if this post in any way violates any rules (particularly of this thread). This is my first post here (though I have been reading for months), and with it I would like to thank everyone that has helped to contribute to the high quality theorycraft available.

Last Wednesday was the first night that I actually looked at my individual DPS on a separate fight (as opposed to an entire raid), and the fight I chose was Magtheridon. I used the optimal cycle provided in the sheet, attempted to maximize time on the target, stacked cooldowns (haste pots with blade flurry and bloodlust brooch, AR separate so I don't have too much energy to spend), and did everything to the best of my capacity.

My gear is roughly all Karazhan gear with some ZA/badge pieces. My DPS on the fight was 1160. My question is regarding if there is any way I could improve that. The DPS spreadsheet states that my expected DPS is 1562 (with all of the raid buffs that I had available to me). Is the nature of the Magtheridon fight a bad test (due to having to switch targets and move from channeler to channeler), or am I doing something fundamentally wrong (following the recommended cycle of 1s/5r with 2t4). Or, is this an expected variance in the spreadsheet and should I just take the buffed DPS with a large grain of salt?

Thanks in advance.

Edit: I signed my post out of habit, and then corrected it.

 

Left

Two things to check:

1) Did you have the base armor value set correctly for Magtheridon? (Come to think of it, I'm not sure what the armor value for Mag is.)
2) Were your buffs available 100% of the time? (IE, if you had Battle Shout, did your warrior ever forget to put it up? If WF, was it up 100% of the time?)

That said, there are several contributing factors which will lower your DPS in that fight from the expected value:

• Moving from channeler to channeler early in the fight
• Energy used on kicking early in the fight (if you are assigned to do interrupts)
• Cube clicking (although I bet you aren't doing this)
• His bounce-you-around effect. (This often puts you in front of Mag, where you will get parried, or else bounces you out of melee range and you have to run back in.)

Also realize that players only very rarely hit the DPS output of the sheet. Most of the time, other factors and the variability of the fight will cause your output to be a bit lower.