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Old 03/23/08, 1:50 AM   #601
Wickedblade
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
<DRT>
Skywall
Question about Trinkets

I didn't update my Spreadsheet for awhile but getting some weird results when i did.
I'm combat swords spec

In my 2_3_2_5 spreadsheet Hourglass of the Unraveller was a -4.55 DPS downgrade from Blessings Deck : Crusade

In 2_4_0_5a spreadsheet it's showing a +5.20 DPS upgrade over Blessings Deck : Crusade

Was something incorrectly modeled in my earlier spreadsheet version or is there some sort of bug throwing off the new spreadsheet?

This 10 DPS swing is with identical gear, gems, spec etc except for the trinket swap itself.

Thanks for some clarification on this

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Old 03/23/08, 1:55 AM   #602
Wickedblade
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
<DRT>
Skywall
Cycle change?

My cycle changed as well from a 3S/5R to a 4S/5R snd cut

Not sure why the change here as well with identical gear??

Thanks

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Old 03/23/08, 4:42 AM   #603
todemax
Piston Honda
 
Troll Rogue
 
Zenedar (EU)
Originally Posted by Wickedblade View Post
My cycle changed as well from a 3S/5R to a 4S/5R snd cut

Not sure why the change here as well with identical gear??

Thanks
DMM made some changes to AR, which might be the reason, and I made som changes to Seal Fate modelling and Haste effects on cycles; either could be responsible for this difference.

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Old 03/23/08, 5:25 AM   #604
Onomatopeizator
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Warrior
 
Zenedar (EU)
Originally Posted by Wickedblade View Post
My cycle changed as well from a 3S/5R to a 4S/5R snd cut

Not sure why the change here as well with identical gear??

Thanks
Same happened for me, but 4s is more accurate i presume (I pretty often ran into trouble with 3s, even when starting slice with 70-80 buffer energy).

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Old 03/23/08, 6:35 AM   #605
mctl
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Confrerie du Thorium (EU)
Just to report what I think is an issue with the OpenOffice version of the spreadsheet.
I use both Excel and OpenOffice spreadsheets, as I have Excel in my laptop at work and OpenOffice on my computer at home.

When the 2.4.0.5.a got out, I plugged my equipment and my buffs and got a value of 1624 dps. That's with Microsoft Excel.
Now, if I open the same spreadsheet with OpenOffice, I have a boot that takes me to 1785 dps ! So, I thought that the compatibility between the two applications was the cause of the boost and I downloaded the OpenOffice one (no macro buttons) and plugged in my equipement and my buffs, ending up with the same result : 1785 dps.
What's with the OpenOffice spreadsheet ?

EDIT : sorry, I found why by looking a few pages back in this thread (post 548). It's working ok now.

Last edited by mctl : 03/23/08 at 6:46 AM.

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Old 03/23/08, 9:51 AM   #606
Dontmindme
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Icecrown
Going back through this thread as I now have time...

Cycles...
I recently removed Adrenaline Rush from the energy cycles and assigned it's damage separately. Previously it was adding the energy to your cycles and the cycles were calculated accordingly. This works with Haste potions as 40 energy can usually just get added to your cycle. 150 energy isn't able to be absorbed that way though because your energy would cap out if you maintain the same cycle. The result for Combat Swords builds looks to be cycles 1/2 a step higher, so 4s/5r cut from 3s/5r. These should be truer cycles. The previously suggested cycles (for builds with Adrenaline Rush) were probably a touch energy starved based upon the 150 energy that couldn't really be properly absorbed into your regular cycle. I may readdress AR more in the future (as most people probably add a full 5e to their cycle and "borrow" extra energy), but this should be much closer (and probably close enough that the prior mentioned tweak probably won't change the suggested cycle).

Hourglass vs. Crusade
Well, every version we learn more about the game mechanics or find ways to improve the modeling. My gut says that for most raiding rogues, Hourglass will be slightly better than Crusade but they are rather close. We'll see after the next version comes out as there is a little more find-tuning.

Hemo
As mentioned many times throughout the thread, the spreadsheet defaults to including an estimate for the hemo contribution to raid DPS. If you look at the FAQ (first page) it discusses this more in depth.

Next Version
I'm hoping to get this out today, but this time I'm going to test it a little more thoroughly. It will include the recently learned Slayer 4-pc changes, more tweaking to Extra Attacks, the correct crit damage formula is implemented (in fact, part of the sheet used Aldriana's crit formula, but I found this wasn't added to the cycle sheets yet). And the one thing I want to implement today is the Windfury buff AP "carryover".

Blade Flurry
That is not a bug. I moved Blade Flurry and merged it with permanent haste (as that's how it's used in the spreadsheet anyway). Essentially, that cell has been obsoleted. In previous versions that was SnD x Blade Flurry in that cell.

Unmodeled items
I actually expected people would type the actual name of the item where it now reads (Unmodeled). I will change that to Unmodeled MH Mace, etc. But as an FYI, you should be able to type the item name in the cell. It should still show up at the bottom of the list (not in alphabetical order).

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Old 03/23/08, 2:27 PM   #607
Dontmindme
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Icecrown
I decided to go with the bare bones changes this time. The Windfury "buff" that sometimes adds extra attack power to additional attacks will go in later. This version is mostly bug fixes and the application of new theorycraft.

The Metagem require change should help with Upgrade checks. Essentially, during upgrade checks, the Metagem requirement is no longer being considered at all. Thus, changing out gear with a blue gem won't disable the bonus anymore and make it appear that much worse items are upgrades.

There might still be issues involving set bonus gains or losses, but its one less thing to worry about.

And for "unmodeled" items, feel free to type over (unmodeled). It was intended that you might want to type in the item name in that location. The new item will appear at the bottom of the list.

2.4.0.6 dmm

Changed
Glancing rates fixed for 70-72; 73 is now a 25% reduction at a 24% rate (from 24%/25%)
Meta Require is now automatically turned off during Upgrade checks to more accurately compare items.
(Although one will still need to adjust gems to meet the requirements for the suggested item to actually be such an upgrade)

Fixed
Hemo/Backstab formulas (broke in 2.4.0.4)
Slayer 4-pc bonus is now additive with Surprise Attacks, Aggression and Opportunity
Sword Spec can proc from specials

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Old 03/23/08, 10:00 PM   #608
Mikhael
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Minor bug here: in the Ring Sheet, row 32 is repeated, so one of the rings shows up twice in the dropdown.

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Old 03/23/08, 10:38 PM   #609
Dontmindme
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Icecrown
Good catch. The 2nd "unmodeled" ring is currently off the list and unaccessible.

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Old 03/24/08, 9:52 AM   #610
sp00n
Bald Bull
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
I'm seeing an 80 DPS increase going from 05a to 06, of which 73 DPS is white DPS. This seems quite hefty, is this the result of the sword specs proccing off specials or did you change something else as well?

// Edit
Just noticed while searching for updates, for the first time DST has been pushed from being #1 trinket. For me, Shard of Contempt is now a slightly better upgrade than DST (yeah, I still don't have it...).

Last edited by sp00n : 03/24/08 at 10:12 AM.

Stopped Playing

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Old 03/24/08, 10:42 AM   #611
Drzivago
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Dentarg (EU)
I was just wondering, is RogueDPS_2_4_0_6NA the latest version of this spreadsheet ?

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Old 03/24/08, 12:53 PM   #612
Rerox
Piston Honda
 
Rerox's Avatar
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Proudmoore (EU)
Originally Posted by Drzivago View Post
I was just wondering, is RogueDPS_2_4_0_6NA the latest version of this spreadsheet ?
_NA is the Mac-Version without armory import.
For Windows-MS-Office-User 2_4_0_6 is the latest version.

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Old 03/24/08, 2:23 PM   #613
Sinsei
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Area 52
DMM, i'm showing benefit by up to 20 hit rating OVER the buffed cap. This is when I use hit food.

Unbuffed = 422
Buffed = 442 (Using hit food)

Adding 20 hit to the unbuffed value (422+20) yields a 0.28 gain on Buffed DPS cell with (462 hit rating).

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Old 03/24/08, 2:35 PM   #614
Left
Don Flamenco
 
Left's Avatar
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Darkspear
Mutilate cycle modeling - state/path diagrams

Here is a followup to my last post on a new method of Mutilate modeling. I've been in conversation w/ Todemax via PM's and he has explained to me more or less how the current Seal Fate modeling works in the current non-Mutilate cycles. (This is the new Seal Fate modeling, after it has been fixed to actually make sense.) What's there right now for the non-Mutilate cycles, as implemented by Todemax and DMM, is more or less what I was thinking of for updating the Mutilate cycles.

Basically, the current implementation is a X+/Y+ cycle, where the damage output is weighted by if you get additional combo points or not from your Seal Fate talent. The reason it hasn't been implemented for Mutilate is the difficulty of determining the percentage of the time that you would get the extra CP. I'm hoping to help fix that issue.

As a start, here is an updated set of state/path diagrams for Mutilate: Savefile.com

EDIT: Updated the URL to a new file with the error that Drumbum caught corrected.

EDIT #2: In the above file "Relentless Strikes" should read "Ruthlessness"... (I always get those two mixed up. However, it's not worth it to upload another file... the formulas don't change.)

(By the way, anyone know how to attach a file directly to your post? Do you need special privileges to do that? I would assume so.)

The last page of that set shows a table of the probabilities of different outcomes based on the parameters specified. The table separates out probabilities for numbers of combo points and numbers of instant attacks used. In practice, a spreadsheet would likely implement this a little differently. I'm going to try to put together a spreadsheet soon which demonstrates the concept I'm getting at.

As always, feedback welcomed.

Last edited by Left : 03/24/08 at 4:31 PM.

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Old 03/24/08, 4:04 PM   #615
drumbum
King Hippo
 
Human Rogue
 
Sargeras
Thanks for putting the state diagrams together Left. It makes it a lot easier to follow what is going on.

I did some error checking on the probability analysis tables and found an error in the formula for 2 instants in a 5 cycle. The red portion is the term you left off:

(1-r)*(1-A)*(B) + (1-r)*(1-A)*(1-B)*(B) + ((1-r)*(A) + (r)*(1-A)) + (r)*(A)*(1-B)
Everything else checked out. I look forward to seeing this implemented into the spreadsheet.

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