I noticed that when I put Executioner on just my offhand, it doesn't appear to give any -armor and as such adds zero dps. When I put executioner on the main hand it does, something like 361, then if i put it on the off hand at that point, it adds to the main hand's -armor. This appears to be at least partly why it shows no benefit to putting executioner on the offhand only. I noticed that with mongoose, you have haste and agil being assigned to the off hand enchant rather than adding to the main hand one. This seems to make more sense to me as well but the Executioner doesn't follow that model. Is this a bug or a feature?
Or is it just the way you have to do it for whatever reason? I'm semi-ignorant of complex code so I realize it very well could be just that.
One other thing, I play a mutilate rogue and it seems to me at least that my offhand procs mongoose just about as often as my main hand. I am attacking with both weapons equally, and they are both 1.8 speed so this seems to make sense to me, yet the spreadsheet shows a lower value for the offhand. Am I incorrect in thinking that they will proc at the same rate in a Mutilate build?
If anyone can shed some light on the above, I would greatly appreciate it.
All my best comments during raids come from a book called, "How to be Witty at Parties"
I noticed that when I put Executioner on just my offhand, it doesn't appear to give any -armor and as such adds zero dps.
Yes, that does sound like a bug.
Am I incorrect in thinking that they will proc at the same rate in a Mutilate build?
Well, how different are the values? Special attacks can also proc weapon enchants like Mongoose and Executioner, which may be where the discrepency is coming from. However it should be a pretty small difference, since Mutilate attacks with both weapons. Therefore, basically the only thing that should proc only mainhand is Rupture and Eviscerate/Envenom. But if the two values are wildly different, then there may be a bug there too.
One other thing, I play a mutilate rogue and it seems to me at least that my offhand procs mongoose just about as often as my main hand. I am attacking with both weapons equally, and they are both 1.8 speed so this seems to make sense to me, yet the spreadsheet shows a lower value for the offhand. Am I incorrect in thinking that they will proc at the same rate in a Mutilate build?
If anyone can shed some light on the above, I would greatly appreciate it.
Originally Posted by drumbum
Therefore, basically the only thing that should proc only mainhand is Rupture and Eviscerate/Envenom. But if the two values are wildly different, then there may be a bug there too.
Windfury attack can, as far as I know, proc chance-on-hit or PPM things such as Mongoose.
However, just disabling Windfury does not bring the difference in proc percentages down to what I would expect. The culprit seems to be that Mutilate doesn't model the special OH attack as being able to proc anything. The formula in question is J57 on the Buffed DPS sheet:
=J52+IF(instatk="v",J53,0)
This could be changed as follows, I think, to properly count Mutilate as an attack which can proc OH effects:
=J52+IF(OR(instatk="v",instatk="mut"),J53,0)
Actually, it looks like everything across that whole row of the little table would have to have the same sort of change substituted in.
However, before making that change, it might be good for someone to test to see if Mutilate really does proc OH mongoose.
There is a bug with offhand only Executioner. Change the B17 on the Weapon Enchants page to B11 and it works as intended. One thing to note is that the way I have it coded, you will not see armor pen in the offhand if both hands have Executioner. This is intended as both procs stack.
As to Mutilate and proc mechanics, it's not quite right. I think I've now got the Mutilate specific mechanics coded correctly. I seem to recall posts claiming that Mutilate has procced Mongoose twice with the same swing before. I'm going to try to get a new beta candidate up today.
I'm not sure that would do it completely. The Proc Mechanics modules would both have to be changed quite a bit, i think, to properly account for proc changes in a muta build.
The formula for instant attacks in the 'hit' box looks like this:
=L53/$F$24*(IF(instatk="mut",2,1))
The cell L53 is:
=instsec
Which I assume is the number of instant attacks, in this case the number of mutilates, per second and the value in my sheet refelcts that assumption (it's 0.15).
the cell F24 is:
=SUM(F22:F23)
Which is the sume of mutilate's hit% + crit% or 1 - (doge% + miss%)
So if I'm reading this right, and I'd like to think that I am, the first forumula counts the number of mutilates and divides by the total hit % and then multiplies by two. So both hits from mutilate are counted in the proc module but they are both counted as main hand hits. Which may or may not be a bug.
We could use some testing to determine the exact nature of how procs interact with mutilate. It's possible that the attack is counted, for proc purposes, as a number of things: 1 MH hit, 2 MH hits, 1 MH hit and 1 OH hit, and maybe even 2 OH hits. If someone can produce some numbers to support a specific proc mechanic to model we can fix the sheet from there.
Lastly, I'm not sure if the original code is correct in the division by the total hit%. It seems like it should be multiplying the hit/sec number by the hit% to get the total number of attacks that actually land.
You are correct, the changes are quite a bit more extensive than that.
The mutilate multiplier is moving from attacks/sec to hits per second.
And to clarify on your last point...
Hits/sec is how many attacks actually land. Thus, one needs to divide by the hit rate to arrive at the actual number of attacks made.
In short:
Attacks/sec is equivalent to swings of that type.
Hits/sec is the rate they actually connect.
Also, I recall some anecdotal evidence where someone claimed to get a double Mongoose proc from a single Mutilate, hence I'm going with 1 MH and 1 OH for now until proven otherwise.
EDIT: Never mind, scratch all of this. Turns out the spreadsheet is calculating this the right way already, and I'm just slow.
DMM, there is also the issue of dodged instants and finishers. Dodges are currently modeled in the new cycle calculations as an increased energy cost to the instant or finisher. Thus, dodges are accounted for, on average, by simply increasing the average energy cost of each ability in accordance with the dodge rate. After doing this, the modeled dodge rate for instants and finishers should effectively be zero in terms of calculating hits/second of those abilities.
The current sheet does this right by pulling the instants/sec and finishers/sec from the cycles sheet. However, then it gets the number of attacks/sec by dividing by the hit rate. Is that a reasonable thing to do?
What we know
Mutilate costs 60 energy
Dodged Mutilate costs 60/5 = 12 energy
Energy regens at 10/sec Assume a 5% dodge rate
Method 1 - Obtains hits/sec, then divide by hit rate for atts/sec
Mutilate costs, on average 60 + (60/5)*0.05 = 60.6 energy per hit
hits/sec = 10/60.6 ~= 0.165
atts/sec = 0.165/(1-0.05) ~= 0.17370
Is this right?
Method 2 - Calculate cost of Mutilate attack and directly calculate atts/sec
Cost of Mutilate attack (hit or not) = 60*0.95 + 12*0.05 = 57.6
atts/sec = 10/57.6 ~= 0.17361
hits/sec = 0.95*0.17361 = 0.1649
The number of attacks per second yielded is different (slightly lower). I think it is the more accurate number, though. The problem with the first method of calculation is that it assumes that there is only ever one dodged Mutilate in a row. IE, the average cost of Mutilate is calculated as Mut Cost + (Dodged Mut Cost)*(Dodge Chance). In reality, you could, in rare cases, have two dodged Mutilates in a row, bringing the average cost a little higher.
A better way to calculate the average Mutilate cost would be to calculate the cost of a Mutilate hit as follows:
Average cost of Mutilate = 60*(Hit rate) + 12*(Miss rate)
# of Mutilates that hit = Hit rate
Cost of Mutilate per hit = Average cost of Mutilate / Hit rate = (60*(Hit rate) + 12*(Miss rate))/(Hit rate)
This method yields values close to, but slightly lower than, the other, simpler estimate method. EG, for our 5% dodge rate above, we get
Mut hit cost = (60*0.95 + 12*0.05)/0.95 = 60.632 energy vs 60.600 energy
I'm out of time now, but I'll try to identify which cells need to be changed later...
Is there a way I can manually modify the rotations? I want to see the benefit of using imp EA in a 10 man over rup. when a warrior tank is not available.
Is there a way I can manually modify the rotations? I want to see the benefit of using imp EA in a 10 man over rup. when a warrior tank is not available.
The quick and dirty way would be to set sunder armor to 0 and expose armor to 5 and then go to the 'Buffed DPS' sheet (which should be visable by default) and subtract the value in cell J11 from your overall DPS (cell J11 is your actual rupture damage). While not entirely accurate this will given you a rough estimate of what your DPS would be in a cycle with EA.
If there is no warrior to sunder EA is almost always a personal DPS boost and if there is at least 1 other phyisical DPS in the raid (melee DPS + hunters) it is always a raid DPS boost.
Is there a way I can manually modify the rotations? I want to see the benefit of using imp EA in a 10 man over rup. when a warrior tank is not available.
I can tell you for sure it is on DMM's to-do list. EA cycles are in the sheet right now as placeholders, but aren't yet implemented.
I was somewhat surprised to see my expected DPS go down in the move from the 2.4.2.1a beta to the 2.4.2.1b beta. With the revamp of Mongoose's proc mechanics for Mutilate, I thought I would see a modest DPS increase from that change. When checking into it, it appears that overall my Mongoose uptime did increase a bit (and is now spread more evenly between my two weapon hands). However, somehow my crit rate has gone down significantly (nearly 0.7%). I'm looking here at cell E6 on the Buffed Cycles sheet.
It appears that there is now a correction for boss level in there? (Red highlight...)
Was that level difference not ever taken into account before with respect to crits? If that's the case, correcting that bug will hurt Mutilate's estimates more than other specs. Oh well, truth hurts.
---------------------
Interestingly, that 0.6% crit only seems to account for ~7 DPS loss for me. IE, if I use the old formula it bumps me back up only 7 DPS. I was trying to figure out where the rest of the difference came from, and I noted that Mutilate damage dropped 9 DPS even with the old crit formula in use instead. This is despite the fact that my AP and armor penn. were almost identical between the two sheets.
Oddly, cell X10 ("mutbase") on the "Buffed Cycles" sheet is reporting an average value for Mutilate much lower, even with identical crit. Formulas for other instants are also lower. The formulas haven't changed in these cells, but I am seeing that cell Y7 (instcrit) dropped over 2 percentage points between the sheets. This cell is set equal to "instcrit". Is there a reason "instcrit" dropped so much more than that 0.6 from the above change?
EDIT: Never mind, I found it. Apparently when I imported from the other sheet it did not properly import the options for Cold Blood. It was applying Cold Blood to finishers (which does no good for Rupture) instead of to Mutilate. Once I changed the Cold Blood option to instants, the observed ~9 DPS difference went away.
However, you may want to check the options macro to make sure it pulls in Cold Blood properly from sheet to sheet.
Yeah, for some reason even though all the code was in place, the level difference crit factor just had never been applied. I looked back a long time ago to a version prior to my involvement on the spreadsheet and it was missing then. Weapon skill was accounted for, just not the additional 3 levels and when weapon skill was changed to expertise, it went away entirely. I noticed it when I was checking some of the stats vs. low level mobs and found no DPS increase after hit and dodge capped as I switched from level 1 to level 10 mobs.
Now, people can figure out their DPS correctly vs. Hogger...kidding...
I just noticed that the stats in the sheet of "Brutal Gladiator's Leather Tunic" are different from the stats at wowhead: [Brutal Gladiator's Leather Tunic]
The quick and dirty way would be to set sunder armor to 0 and expose armor to 5 and then go to the 'Buffed DPS' sheet (which should be visable by default) and subtract the value in cell J11 from your overall DPS (cell J11 is your actual rupture damage). While not entirely accurate this will given you a rough estimate of what your DPS would be in a cycle with EA.
If there is no warrior to sunder EA is almost always a personal DPS boost and if there is at least 1 other phyisical DPS in the raid (melee DPS + hunters) it is always a raid DPS boost.
As you admit, it'd just be an estimate. The main thing to realize is that since there's no longer a benefit to squeezing finishers closer together -- since EA is a much longer debuff (30 seconds) and is binary like SND -- your best cycle is basically always going to be 5s/5ea regardless of what your best Rupture cycle is.
To anyone having trouble with the "This workbook has lost its VBA project, ActiveX controls and any other programmability-related features." error message, here is a link on how to fix it:
Also, I recall some anecdotal evidence where someone claimed to get a double Mongoose proc from a single Mutilate, hence I'm going with 1 MH and 1 OH for now until proven otherwise.
I'm 100% sure I've had that happen to me, many, many times. That's what gave me the courage to even make my post in the first place. I've been reading the rogue threads on here for about 8 months now and my skill as a rogue has grown exponentially. That said, I still feel a bit like a novice when reading the Advanced Mechanics thread so I was pretty timid about even suggesting something may be modeled more accurately a different way for fear of just making crazy talk.
A million thanks to all the people that have contributed to the works of art that are the DPS and Gear Spreadsheets.
Theorycrafting is what makes the rogue class the best class in WoW, imho of course =)
All my best comments during raids come from a book called, "How to be Witty at Parties"
The hemo debuff estimate takes into account the number of hemos you're doing. 2s/5r spends more energy on hemo, thus gains a higher contribution to overall raid dps. When you turn the estimate off, it becomes better for your personal dps to shorten your cycle, spending more energy on finishers but gaining rupture uptime.
I've been a combat sword rogue for a very long time now. Today [Shard of Azzinoth] droped and my class leader thought it would be a good idea if I took it since my main hand is still [Talon of Azshara] and we aren't going to Hyal anymore, I dont have access to season 3 weapons and I probably will never get warglaives.
So I put my gear in the spreadsheet (Version 2.4.0.9OO) only to find out that:
Skilling multilate would be 50 DPS worse then skilling combat daggers.
Skilling combat daggers would be 100 DPS worse then staying combat swords and continuing useing Talon.
That was quite shocking. I've read every rogue thread on this forum from the first to the last page so I don't think I made a major flaw. I started double and triple checking and trying different raid buffs, but it didn't get any better.
And now I'm sitting here with headache. The gap between swords and daggers can't be 100-150 DPS, right? Or can it?
It certainly can, and has long been the reason why the entire raid sighs when the 27th unique dagger in the instance drops AGAIN.
It's a less flexible, less dynamic spec (combat that is, Mutilate is fun to play), and inferior in DPS. Swords are, unfortunately, THE pure dps option. If you play combat daggers, you are probably insane, but if you're guild lets you play mutilate, and you dont mind a dps gap you'll never be able to close, go for it.
Unfortunately, the only other option i can suggest, is well, get practicing in the arena!
I've been using Talon myself for quite some time. Even though I still have access to BoI, Talon is still a very decent weapon. I have had plenty of chances to replace my Talon, but BoI is only a couple DPS upgrade over Talon (for me), so I've chosen to not waste the investment for mongoose. While the chance for you to get a Warglaive may be small, raiding with a Talon will still perform just as good as S3 or BoI. If your guild is forcing you to go Mut, then I guess you have no choice, but if you want to stay combat, you'll be fine with a Talon.
05/08/08, 7:05 AM
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