Capek

Not if the spreadsheet says it isn't. It's simple. Maths > guesswork.

 

Dontmindme

Yes, it appears that Elixir was never type coded. Still a legacy from before mob type was introduced. Easy enough to fix.

 

sp00n

Hm ok, if it's 3.5% it actually can. I'm hovering at around 2200 DPS with the buffs activated for Brutallus, which then makes sense.
However, the point with Elixir of Demonslaying still stands.

 

Oscarvil

This statement is stupid. There is no such thing as too low on hit. The spreadsheet will tell you whether it is a dps upgrade or not, regardless of which specific stats an item has.

 

Maltese

Currently the spreadsheet does not have the option in the buffs/consumables section for the braided eternium choker on use buff (+28 crit). Anyway to get this added on the next update?

Also, does anyone know if grenades stop your swing timer? Obviously that would be hard to add to the sheet since the damage it does is highly dependent on the number of mobs you hit with it. Thanks!

 

Left

If you are the one planning to use the necklace, then you can select the appropriate version (with or without +28 crit rating) in the drop-down menu.

If you are not the one using the necklace, but someone else in the party is, then you can add a buff for it:

1. Open the latest Beta (RogueDPS_053008beta.xls)
2. Go to the "Gear _ Buffs" sheet
3. Scroll down to row 136
4. In cell A136 type "Braided Eternium Chain buff"
5. In cell G136 type the formula "=28*B136"
6. In cell B136 select "1" from the drop-down menu to enable your new buff
7. Profit

 

Waldar

Or you can do the cheap way :
manually add 28 crit rating anywhere in the crit column, just don't save your sheet.

Quick and dirty.

 

Grimmer

Any reason as to why [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] would be valued slightly over [Shadowmaster's Boots] in the spreadsheet?

Also will appreciate any comments on my gearing.

Edit: Turns out it was the gemming with an intention to keep the set bonuses vs gemming for DPS was the difference ><, still surprised to see how close these two boots are.

 

Ashkira

I know that combat-fists should be better than a hemo-deadliness.

But when I chance to hemo-deadliness the spreadsheet increases my DPS from 1690 to 1708. This seems quite significant to me, but I cannot put my finger on why this should be better.

I am using the MH-Fists at the moment and using an equip consisting of T5, heroic-badge rewards (sun-plateau), and MH-Drops of the first two bosses.

I am a little bit relucant to reorganize my talent-points though the spreadsheet tells me, that it would increase my personal DPS and (via the hemo debuff) even the Raid-DPS.

Any suggestions?

 

Ashere

2 reasons even:
1) Dirty Deeds can't be modeled perfectly. Because of you and various other classes with "target below X% health" abilities, mobs/bosses will die slightly faster at that stage, while the spreadsheets are assuming an "endless fight", and have a percentile modifier to the damage to estimate the effect of Dirty Deeds for you. You will be dealing more damage during that stage, but that stage will last shorter than assumed.
2) Combat Potency is the main reason why Combat builds pull ahead of tri-spec with the debuff included at some stage. To reach this point, you'll want a combination of two things: high +hit, which you have, but also a high haste rating, which you don't have (yet). Hemo tri-spec vs combat viability is a matter gear, nothing else. There are rough rules of thumb which will tell you when you may spec tri-spec, and when you definitely should pick combat (the famous "In SSC/TK it evens out, in BT you should go Combat"), but even then, the drops you get might still favor the unexpected.

 

Karmon

Most likely that comes from the fact that the default settings of the sheet has "Include Hemodebuff estimate" set to true.
That has the effect that the expected gain of the raid due to the 10 application of the hemo debuff is added to your
personal DPS.
It you want to see your personal dps, uncheck the above mentioned flag on the 'Talents' page and add 1 hemo rogue to the
boss debuff section in the 'Gear' sheet.

 

ekval

When you change from 3/3 SnD to 2/3 SnD with typical 20/41/0 Combat Sword build, the difference is only under 2 dps. Is this correct? The cycle changes from 4s/5r to 5s/5r and slack time also changes. Will I end up having some cycle problems ingame if I go 2/3 SnD instead of 3/3?

 

drumbum

Assuming it says you'll maintain a decent amount of slack time, then yes, 2/3 Imp SND would theoretically be feasible. However, where else are you planning on putting the extra talent point you save? There's really no better place to put it, as the only alternative place to put the points are into non-DPS related talents.

 

ekval

Spreadsheet gives -0,11 slack time with 2/3 SnD. And the build would come to easier our M'uru tactic.

 

Ashkira

Thanks. I did not notice that the standard setting was to true. Thanks, this cleared it up for me.

Ashkira

 

redhat

Hi Folks,

first off all I would like to say that appearently you have made a good job in setting up this sheet. The first impressions I received are great, but now I try to get it done for my char and there I have a question:

How to make it work for me?

I use the import from Armory function which imports my equipment into the sheet - also talent work.
But from this point all the calculations seem not to work for me.

Which steps do I need to make get the calculations like AEP etc. work for me?

My char is Redhat from Ambossar. Can anyone help me or even (that would be so nice) send me (jan.buesen@web.de) the correct sheet?

Cheers
Redhat

 

Dontmindme

The problem seems to be the importation of a couple of enchantments. Manually select the corresponding enchantment for your boots and bracers will fix the problem for now. The boots should be easy to fix (the name isn't quite the same as the other uses of the Armor Kit and is causing a lookup problem). The Bracers is more problematic as the same enchant with the same enchant ID has a different name whether its on the chest or on bracers, one is Stats the other Greater Stats. I'll have to rename them the same thing, although that might confuse people.

 

ekval

Other thing I'm curious is, where did 11/28/22 builds go from PvE? Is it still beneficial to run maybe one Hemo rogue in raids these days? DPS Spreadsheet is showing some dps gain when switching from Combat Swords to Hemo Swords.

 

Akarus

OK, you are the second poster to disagree with my statement. And that's fine with me. I don't consider this spreed sheet to be perfect and is used as a barometer on what is to be considered as upgrades. I use other resources such as ShadowPanther.net, forums, and personal experience to come to my own conclusion as to what is an upgrade. Not just this one spread sheet. I would like to say that the spread sheet is very nice and I appreciate all the work done to it and use it almost daily.

Now having said that, calling my statement stupid is like the pot calling the kettle black. Especially after you make the statement "There is no such thing as too low on hit". That's a joke right? If you can't hit the target it doesn't matter how much AP you have. Even the spread sheet suggests mostly all +hit gems when you look for gem upgrades. Think about that math for a bit.

If you want to debate the issue I am happy to do so and to be proven wrong. But don't just come here to troll and flame other posters.

 

Left

No, that's not really the point. He is correct to say "there is no such thing as too low on hit." IE, there is no point where you should sacrifice a DPS upgrade simply to maintain some minimum value of hit rating.

Shadowpanther.net is outdated and doesn't take into account nuances of gear and spec; forums, opinions, and personal experience are great but completely subjective. The spreadsheet(s) are the closest thing we have to an objective answer, as a lot of time and care has gone in to making sure they count everything properly. If you compare two items in the spreadsheet and one results in higher DPS than the other, then that item is better. Period. It doesn't matter if it has 0 hit rating; if it shows an increase it is better.

Let me make an illustration. Let's assume you currently have 64 hit rating (an extremely low number, but still enough to be hit capped on specials) and that you are wearing a piece of gear that has 10 agility and 10 hit rating. You are offered a gear upgrade for the same slot that has 100 agility and 0 hit rating, but obviously equipping it would cause you to fall below the hit cap. Even so, having that much more agility is a clear DPS upgrade, even at the expense of hit. That was a trivial example, but what about the case where you want to trade a 10 hit rating, 10 agility, 20 AP piece of equipment for a 25 agility, 25 AP piece of equipment? Is the second piece better? That's why we have the spreadsheet; it tells us an objective answer to that question.

Hit rating is the strongest gemmable stat, point for point. That is why you see hit gems as the recommended upgrades. However, when you make a gear tradeoff, you usually aren't exchanging equally itemized pieces. Thus, the upgrade may lose you hit but still be an upgrade because you make up the difference in other stats. Thus, losing hit can still be a DPS increase (depending on what you gain in exchange), all the way down to 0 hit rating. That is why it is a fallacy to hold to an artificial hit floor, of any sort. That is why it is a true statement to say that "there is no such thing as too low on hit."

 

Mirag

But you can hit your target no matter how little hitrating you got so it does matter how mutch attackpower you have.
The spread sheet tells that hit is an awsome stat and i doent think anyone disagree with that.

 

Akarus

Your response was well thought out and made me view the situation from a different light. Much better than calling my statement stupid.

But let me play devil's advocate for a second. Lets play around with a lower number +hit. And say you had the option to put on a piece of equipment that gave you a 5% dps boost because of some other stat (AP, AGI, STR whatever). But to get that you had to lose to hit which equated to 5% or 6% less chance to hit the mob.

My questions is, is the 5% more dps still better when you are not hitting the mob 5% or 6% less of the time? Do they cancel each other out? How does the two percentages scale with each other? Is it 1 to 1 or some other scale?

To me, and this may change, I still think there is a point that is too low. How about below 64? then your specials are missing too. Or even at 0? Then you are misssing everyting 20% to 27%(if I remember correctly). I would think that would be a huge decrease in DPS. In Kara with 10% to hit you are missing 12% 15% of the time. Since most of a rogue's dmg comes from white hits I would think that more +hit would have a significant impact in DPS at lower levels of +hit. Now I'm not saying you need to have the full 363 +hit to be good. I myself and bouncing between 233 and 288. I'm sure it's not as high as some of you here, but I too am at the point where I'm starting to look at the value of +hit on the higher end of the curve. It seems the higher you go the less effect it has on DPS (could just be me). It seem to not scale as well higher up levels of +hit and gear. But lower levels of +hit do seem to have a higher impact.

Now the poster I responded to, I didn't ask how much he had in +hit. Didn't look him up on the Armory. I just made a suggestion that if it's too low then the Vile choker might be the way to go until he can offset that with other equipment. I didn't try to pass it off as fact, just a suggestion. I come here to get help. and try to help others when I can.

I don't mind being proved wrong in a logical and non-condescending manner. I just don't like posters that can't formulate a reason other than to start off statements like "that's stupid".

 

Left

To respond to your other questions, there isn't a universal set correspondence between the stats. Rather, the equivalences change based on your current gear and spec. Again, the spreadsheet accounts for this. If you are using Excel, you can even use the "calculate AEP" macro to get stat weights for your specific gear, stats, and buff set in terms of either attack power, agility, or sustained DPS. This will show you how must 1 stat is worth versus another.

Second, the spreadsheet also accounts for breakpoints. So, below 64 hit rating hit is worth more, because it helps make your specials hit. However, that doesn't mean 64 hit rating is a floor, it just means that when you cross that boundary you should recheck gearing in all your slots to be sure that you still have the highest DPS pieces available. (In practice, it is nearly impossible to get this low and still use the best available gear, as there is an abundance of hit rating on rogue gear.) Above 363, hit rating is worth nothing; the spreadsheet takes that into account as well.

Finally, the best answer I can give to questions of "how much of X is worth losing if you gain Y" or "how much of an impact does losing 5% hit give" or "how much do things scale with each other" is to consult the spreadsheet. It takes all of this into account. You can also get a general idea of what does what by reading the Rogue PvE DPS Theorycraft Article, but even that article will tell you to consult the spreadsheet(s) for final gear decisions.

EDIT: I think you and I mean different things by "DPS" boost. When I talk about a DPS boost, I am talking about a final, end number - not what is shown on your in-game character pane as "weapon DPS". The spreadsheet tells you an overall sustained DPS number: the number you could expect to reach in a perfectly stationary fight where you did everything right and after taking into account how your hit, miss, crit rates, finishers used, instants used, etc. You seem to be divorcing a change in hit from a change in DPS; I am not doing that. I, and the spreadsheet, are talking about an end DPS number which is affected by AP (ie, damage per hit), crit rating and agility (num. of critical strikes), and hit rating (num. of misses). Thus saying I gain 5% DPS but lose 5% hit is a silly statement. If you gain 5% DPS, that is what matters. (If you mean something like "I gain 5% AP but lose 5% hit, what is the effect on my DPS?", then, well, I answered that question in the preceding paragraphs.)

 

Dorvan

See, I think that's you're missing what's meant by something being a 5 % DPS increase. That doesn't mean you're hitting 5% harder necessarily, it means that at the end of the day after counting the increase in damage per hit, the change in crit rate, the change in hit rate, and all the other factors involved, you're voerall daamge output is 5% higher over the same period of time. Your damage output isn't some function of your DPS, it *is* your DPS. So if an item is a DPS increase, that means that it's an increase after taking account all the various factors going into damage *including* hit.

In practice, hit is one of the more valuable stats around so picking up hit tends to be a good move in practice, but in theory there *is* no minimum hit, not even at the specials hit cap. Hit becomes worth even more at that point, but fundamentally it still has some quantifiable worth, so that if you gained a large enough amount of AP by the trade-off it'd be worth falling below that cap: the hit caps don't have some magic property that if you're below them your DPS plummets regardless of the other stats...DPS is a function of all your stats. Hit tends to be one of the more valuable inputs, but there's no magic reason for it, and it some other item produces a DPS increase despite a reduction in hit, it's the better item.

 

Akarus

Thanks for the info. It has been an eye opener in some areas. I will dig into the spread sheet to look at the formulas used there. But the one reason I don't take the spread sheet to be perfect is because Blizzard hasn't release the exact details on how all the stats interact with each other. We have to do a "best guess" using in-game mods and Combat log parsers. And there is also the degree of randomness in the system. Also there seems to be a difference from one in-game addon to the next. A perfect example is Recap and Recount. Sometimes the numbers are wildly different from each other. Sometimes they are very close to the same. But never do the completely match up. So if we cannot rely on the statical models that these formulas are based on 100% then we cannot rely on the spread sheet 100%. There will always be that subjective opinion that we'll need to make while playing our own character with our own equipment.

But I see your point and it is a good one. This sheet is probably the closet we will get to being perfect model of DPS for rogues. And maybe I should set aside my "grain of salt" approach that I take with it, and just run with it.

Again great job to the authors of this sheet.