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Old 06/12/08, 6:19 PM   #1276
Slyven
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Burning Blade
Yeah, I was pretty much hoping for someone to tell me its fine to stay with the swords. Cause I like swords (like every rogue ever rolled). I will just give it a whirl and if there is not much change in my DPS I will probably just stay swords

Was just hoping for a way to keep my class lead of my nuts.

Last edited by Slyven : 06/12/08 at 6:42 PM.

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Old 06/13/08, 3:01 PM   #1277
Darmoed
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Gorefiend
How hard is it add a totem twisting option for the shaman buffs?

Thanks.

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Old 06/13/08, 3:13 PM   #1278
Dorvan
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Darmoed View Post
How hard is it add a totem twisting option for the shaman buffs?

Thanks.
Simply selecting Windfury as your weapon buff and Grace of Air under the buff list should cover that.

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Old 06/13/08, 4:45 PM   #1279
sp00n
Bald Bull
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
Just that, AFAIK, GoA uptime will be about 80% with totem twisting and not 100%.

Stopped Playing

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Old 06/16/08, 8:23 AM   #1280
Najani
Von Kaiser
 
Najani's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Proudmoore
I smell rogue tanking all over the latest updated of the spreadsheet. I appreciate the changes :-)

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Old 06/17/08, 7:55 AM   #1281
Timujingeo
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Kazzak (EU)
Quick question for the experts in here if you would.
Courtesy of the theorycraft in the forums I know that rupture is the 'best' finisher after SnD on bleedable bosses. However, the problem I have is that recently my dps has suffered in BT using rupture. It seems that my ruptures are being cancelled by us hitting the boss dot cap.
Does anyone know if the amount of available slots has been reduced?
In order to compensate I've taken to using evis instead and to be honest my average dps has gone way above what I was achieving with rupture which goes against the theory.
I asked our rogue CM about this and his take on it is that 5 pt. rupture will do an average of 2k damage assuming it doesn't get overwritten. A 5 pt. evis will vary from 1100-3700k but of course it's instant so no chance to get cancelled.
Of course one big problem with the spike damage of evis is the aggro, but to be honest I think I'll be using evis from now on as rupture just seems to not work very well in our raids.

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Old 06/17/08, 8:10 AM   #1282
dinesh
Piston Honda
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Dalaran
I have heard nothing about the debuff stack decreasing in size. If your ruptures are being pushed off, it will have obvious detrimental effects on your DPS. Though in these cases, your best bet is to work with your raid to identify what is going on and take different steps - I'm pretty sure switching from DP to IP or sharpening stones is a better tradeoff to avoid rogue debuffs.

There have been several explanations of why rupture is superior to eviscerate, most recent is probably in the locked rogue thread which preceded this one. I would use the search feature to look it up. The TTT article about rogues hints briefly at the derivation as well - basically, rupture costs less energy, allowing you to spend more of your energy on SS.

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Old 06/17/08, 9:11 AM   #1283
Left
Don Flamenco
 
Left's Avatar
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Darkspear
Originally Posted by dinesh View Post
basically, rupture costs less energy, allowing you to spend more of your energy on SS.
In more detail: 5 pt. Rupture is free with Relentless Strikes, 5 pt. Eviscerate costs 10 energy. The energy difference, coupled with Mangle and armor reduction, cause Rupture to pull fairly far ahead. If Rupture is falling off, the first thing to do is to look for other unnecessary or low-priority debuffs in the raid and try to eliminate them first. (Also, Deadly poison -> Instant poison is not a good tradeoff if there is an Elemental shaman in the raid. Just go to a sharpening stone.)

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Old 06/18/08, 5:38 AM   #1284
Coffin Burier
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Hakkar (EU)
Assume that the DPS Spreadsheet says I should have a 41% crit change (raid buffed), which is exact. Why Recount says my crit change never gets over 38% during most fights (if not dropping very close to 30%, which seems to be a big error)? This is true both for yellow damage and white damage (the second tends to be never higher then 33%).

I'm Seal Fate/Hemo and the Crit Change really makes the difference to me. You can see my equip on the armory. Anyway, my hit rating is 215 and my expertise rating is 44 (raid buffed).

During the encounters I'm talking about, all my party buffs have been up for the whole time. I've been taking some screenshots of Recount during the last months to keep a database of my results. Sometimes my crit change is right, and when that happens, I'm usually the top dps in the raid.

What I would like to know is if there a known issue about the crit changes in raid, please. Thank you.

Last edited by Coffin Burier : 06/18/08 at 5:55 AM.

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Old 06/18/08, 6:59 AM   #1285
RobertM
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Priest
 
Lightbringer
I've just started using this spreadsheet and I quite like it so far. However, one thing I find rather odd... I know Mongoose is supposed to be better than Executioner as an enchant, but I'm being told by the spreadsheet that putting Executioner on my MH (which is currently un-enchanted, as I got it recently) will actually lower my DPS. Now that just doesn't make any sense to me...

It's also saying that Major Striking is a much better enchant for my Blade of Serration than Mongoose, which is also contrary to conventional wisdom. Now, I'm fine with that—conventional wisdom is often wrong—but I just want to make sure that these aren't manifestations of some kind of bug...

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Old 06/18/08, 7:27 AM   #1286
Timujingeo
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Kazzak (EU)
I've heard that double mongoose is better until you get enough T6 to make the executioner ArP a better choice for MH. I'm sure there are better qualified experts than me to explain the mechanics of why though.

Originally Posted by RobertM View Post
I've just started using this spreadsheet and I quite like it so far. However, one thing I find rather odd... I know Mongoose is supposed to be better than Executioner as an enchant, but I'm being told by the spreadsheet that putting Executioner on my MH (which is currently un-enchanted, as I got it recently) will actually lower my DPS. Now that just doesn't make any sense to me...

It's also saying that Major Striking is a much better enchant for my Blade of Serration than Mongoose, which is also contrary to conventional wisdom. Now, I'm fine with that—conventional wisdom is often wrong—but I just want to make sure that these aren't manifestations of some kind of bug...

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Old 06/18/08, 7:45 AM   #1287
Wickedchild
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by RobertM View Post
I've just started using this spreadsheet and I quite like it so far. However, one thing I find rather odd... I know Mongoose is supposed to be better than Executioner as an enchant, but I'm being told by the spreadsheet that putting Executioner on my MH (which is currently un-enchanted, as I got it recently) will actually lower my DPS. Now that just doesn't make any sense to me...

It's also saying that Major Striking is a much better enchant for my Blade of Serration than Mongoose, which is also contrary to conventional wisdom. Now, I'm fine with that—conventional wisdom is often wrong—but I just want to make sure that these aren't manifestations of some kind of bug...
I would have to guess that you are reading the spreadsheet wrong, or have some odd options or build set in, cause I just imported your gear from the armory and everything seems in order...
Mongoose>Executioner>20agi>7dmg.

I didnt fiddle with my raid buff options cause I assumed yours wouldnt be much different, nor would it make SUCH a difference.
Maybe try downloading the sheet again and do a simple import from armory and check if it works better.

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Old 06/18/08, 8:59 AM   #1288
Left
Don Flamenco
 
Left's Avatar
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Darkspear
Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
Assume that the DPS Spreadsheet says I should have a 41% crit change (raid buffed), which is exact. Why Recount says my crit change never gets over 38% during most fights (if not dropping very close to 30%, which seems to be a big error)? This is true both for yellow damage and white damage (the second tends to be never higher then 33%).

I'm Seal Fate/Hemo and the Crit Change really makes the difference to me. You can see my equip on the armory. Anyway, my hit rating is 215 and my expertise rating is 44 (raid buffed).

During the encounters I'm talking about, all my party buffs have been up for the whole time. I've been taking some screenshots of Recount during the last months to keep a database of my results. Sometimes my crit change is right, and when that happens, I'm usually the top dps in the raid.

What I would like to know is if there a known issue about the crit changes in raid, please. Thank you.
This seems odd. On average, your crit rate should be what the sheet shows (as long as all your relevant buffs are always up). I take it you are comparing to WWS or Recount, as opposed to your character sheet? Your character sheet in game will not show the crit contribution of Mongoose (unless you look during a Mongoose proc), but the spreadsheet does take that into account.

As for not actually hitting your crit potential, it really does sound like some combination of buffs/debuffs aren't there and/or that you are counting trash in the mix. Trash will most likely reduce your crit rate, since temporary buffs aren't necessarily up. Do you take a Ret paladin for Improved Judgment of the Crusader? If so, does he always judge every single mob, even trash? (I would think he wouldn't.) That's 3% crit. Does your shaman twist Grace of Air? Does he use GoA for trash pulls as well as boss pulls? If not, that's another few percent. Are you in a group with a feral druid? If so, are you always in range of your druid for all pulls? If not, that's 5%. Etc.

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Old 06/18/08, 11:51 AM   #1289
Dontmindme
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Icecrown
This could also be a result of procable crit rating items. The spreadsheet models a "perfect" fight where one always attacks from behind and never has to move. The result of this for procable items is a much higher uptime compared to situations where you move a lot. Just considering Mongoose, in a static fight it will be up say half the time. If you are moving around a lot, the proc uptime won't necessarily be fully utilized, hence the agility benefit and uptime will dip.

The same issue may affect other debuffs from your party members as if they move, the debuffs may drop or show lower uptimes as well.

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Old 06/18/08, 2:42 PM   #1290
Coffin Burier
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Hakkar (EU)
Originally Posted by Left View Post
As for not actually hitting your crit potential, it really does sound like some combination of buffs/debuffs aren't there and/or that you are counting trash in the mix. Trash will most likely reduce your crit rate, since temporary buffs aren't necessarily up. Do you take a Ret paladin for Improved Judgment of the Crusader? If so, does he always judge every single mob, even trash? (I would think he wouldn't.) That's 3% crit. Does your shaman twist Grace of Air? Does he use GoA for trash pulls as well as boss pulls? If not, that's another few percent. Are you in a group with a feral druid? If so, are you always in range of your druid for all pulls? If not, that's 5%. Etc.
I'm just talking about bosses. My party makeup is 3 Rogues and 1 Feral Druid, plus and Hunter or Ret Paladin. I'll start taking some screens of my bad performance, A simple example: my unbuffued crit chance is 30% crit change. It happens more then once that my actual crit change on a boss is lower then 30% buffed... that should be impossible (if you count the crit increase from Elixirs and Food).

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