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06/04/08, 11:55 AM
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#136
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by kwinto
As we know, rogue standing by the tank, in front of mob equipped with melee weapon, is a threat to the raid. Because of possibility to get parried, which causes extra attack on tank. (Until tank rage is a problem ofc and he likes to be beaten more  or we need to use Gouge to counterspell, because mob is immune to Kick) So normally rogues stand behind the target and spam SS at mob's back (or boss ankles, because bosses are too tall to reach their necks) without the risk of being parried.
But sometimes (we experienced it yesterday on Teron) boss turns around to some person in the raid just to cast some nasty spell, and in this moment he seems to be able to parry our attacks. Well - recount says so.
My question is - can this very parry, which happen when casting spell at other-than-tank player, cause extra attack on tank?
Regards.
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All evidence points to this happening, yes. If tank gibbing is your main concern, it would technically be optimal to cancel your autoattack as a mob turns.
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06/04/08, 12:17 PM
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#137
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by gwystyl
Let's steer the conversation somewhere productive if we can't get a consensus on what's above. The poison-simulating-Windfury idea that rogues could apply to other party members sounds really nice, since it would alleviate the threat-from-wft problem. It still doesn't proxy for Unleashed Rage and SoE, but it's a very simple solution and a pleasant buff in rogue utility.
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The best way, bar none, for rogues to remain raid viable is for an MS warrior and enhancment shaman together in the same group to be raid essential. Give MS warriors and enhancement shaman stronger raid wide buffs and no raid will want to be without them. Ensuring that a group with 3 open slots and the above classes and specs is a raid priority is the best way to ensure that a rogue will be a best in group RDPS addtion to at least 1-3 slots in any given raid.
Rogues scale extreamly well with melee buffs, we know this, so all that need be done to make rogues useful in raids is to ensure that their buffers are not only indispensable for melee group DPS but RDPS as well.
The greatest threat to rogue raid slots are death knights, it is already advantageous to stack ret, MS, and enhance in the same group leaving only 2 open slots. If stacking death knights in the melee DPS group also becomes advantageous then rogues will be left with one optimal slot per raid. Hopefully this is an issue blizzard is aware of and they tailor the death knight group buffs, if any, to tanks or ranged DPS and do not tie their ability to provide raid or group buff to the melee buffs they recieve, like they did with ret paladins.
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My vanity is justified.
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06/04/08, 12:33 PM
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#138
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Circus Peanut Quality Control
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Originally Posted by tetracycloide
The best way, bar none, for rogues to remain raid viable is for an MS warrior and enhancment shaman together in the same group to be raid essential. Give MS warriors and enhancement shaman stronger raid wide buffs and no raid will want to be without them. Ensuring that a group with 3 open slots and the above classes and specs is a raid priority is the best way to ensure that a rogue will be a best in group RDPS addtion to at least 1-3 slots in any given raid.
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That's about as well as it can be put, considering the state of things now. Unless I'm misinterpreting the changes to warrior talents, though, it looks highly unlikely that there's any advantage to a dps warrior being MS. The fury abilities look so incredibly powerful so as to overcome the buff of Blood Frenzy.
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06/04/08, 12:41 PM
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#139
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by madman
When my guild progressed through Kara + T4 content and early T5 there were just nothing to gain from LW except maybe a tiny upgrade from Swiftstrike Shoulders
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Are you taking [Drums of Battle] into account? At the T4 level they're more of a personal upgrade than switching T4 shoulders for Swiftstrike, and the buff applies to your entire group. As your gear improves, the benefit from the Drums improves as well. There's a reason a lot of raiding guilds are subsidizing skilling up leatherworking for anyone who wants to switch over...
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06/04/08, 2:32 PM
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#140
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Rogue
Silver Hand
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I've been thinking about it, and while its more likely that Blizzard will add new abilities or talents to make rogues more necessary, I think there are still options with current abilities and talents.
What about allowing Expose Armor to partially stack with Sunder Armor? Perhaps a 25% effectiveness per rogue, stacking up to 3 times. It provides a highly sought after debuff at near full effectiveness with 3 rogues, stacks with sunder so Warrior tanks can still maintain threat, and gives ample reason for raids to keep their 2-3 rogues.
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06/04/08, 6:20 PM
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#141
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Von Kaiser
Kargathia
Night Elf Rogue
No WoW Account (EU)
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Originally Posted by Caspian
I've been thinking about it, and while its more likely that Blizzard will add new abilities or talents to make rogues more necessary, I think there are still options with current abilities and talents.
What about allowing Expose Armor to partially stack with Sunder Armor? Perhaps a 25% effectiveness per rogue, stacking up to 3 times. It provides a highly sought after debuff at near full effectiveness with 3 rogues, stacks with sunder so Warrior tanks can still maintain threat, and gives ample reason for raids to keep their 2-3 rogues.
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Boss armor will drop below zero with Sunders, EA, and CoR, and on high end gear there already is a lot of armor penetration.
Sunder: 2600
EA(imp): 3000
CoR: 800
FF: 600
_________
6800
EDIT: whops, I forgot FF
Last edited by kargathia : 06/04/08 at 6:26 PM.
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06/04/08, 6:33 PM
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#142
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Rogue
Silver Hand
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Yes, but those numbers could easily be tweaked to find the spot where its not overpowered, yet still be desirable to raid groups. Perhaps two stacks capping at 40%.
I agree that a poison (perhaps stacking with multiple rogues) that enhances bleed effects seems to be the best way to go. I also think a stacking debuff is almost necessary to keep more than one rogue in the raid. Theoretically, you're looking at a drop to one rogue anyway, one debuff that doesn't stack with multiple rogues would be unlikely to change that.
I do firmly believe that Blizzard is aware of a possible future imbalance and am hoping that the fears expressed here will not be realized.
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06/04/08, 6:38 PM
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#143
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Von Kaiser
Gnome Warrior
Silver Hand
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Originally Posted by Caspian
What about allowing Expose Armor to partially stack with Sunder Armor? Perhaps a 25% effectiveness per rogue, stacking up to 3 times. It provides a highly sought after debuff at near full effectiveness with 3 rogues, stacks with sunder so Warrior tanks can still maintain threat, and gives ample reason for raids to keep their 2-3 rogues.
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If Expose Armor counted as five stacks of Sunder for the purpose of Devastate (or superceded Sunder Armor's armor reduction effect without overwriting the Sunder Armor debuff), that would go a long way to making it more viable.
Then again, you only need one rogue to carry that debuff. It's Expose Weakness redux.
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06/04/08, 6:44 PM
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#144
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Im***est.
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Originally Posted by Caspian
I agree that a poison (perhaps stacking with multiple rogues) that enhances bleed effects seems to be the best way to go. I also think a stacking debuff is almost necessary to keep more than one rogue in the raid.
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The problem with boosting bleeds is the question of who actually relies on bleeds for damage? Well, there's Druids, but they have Mangle, and it seems unlikely to me that any bleedboost we get would stack with that - it could very easily just become another expose/sunder armor conflict - even still, who else is going to benefit? The only other DPS classes that use bleed effects are Warriors and Rogues. For Warriors, you're looking at boosting an aspect of their DPS that amounts to maybe 2% at best, and bringing a Rogue because it will benefit that rogue isn't exactly the sort of utility we're looking for here.
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06/04/08, 6:51 PM
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#145
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Von Kaiser
Gnome Warrior
Silver Hand
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Originally Posted by Feist-Mok
The problem with boosting bleeds is the question of who actually relies on bleeds for damage? Well, there's Druids, but they have Mangle, and it seems unlikely to me that any bleedboost we get would stack with that - it could very easily just become another expose/sunder armor conflict - even still, who else is going to benefit? The only other DPS classes that use bleed effects are Warriors and Rogues. For Warriors, you're looking at boosting an aspect of their DPS that amounts to maybe 2% at best, and bringing a Rogue because it will benefit that rogue isn't exactly the sort of utility we're looking for here.
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In the current WOTLK alpha, Rend is buffed and scales with AP, warriors have an AOE bleed (which, if I recall corrently, current theorycrafting suggests will mostly be a tanking ability), and Improved Rend has been revamped.
It isn't clear how much of a typical warrior's DPS will be bleeds, but it likely will be more than it is now.
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06/04/08, 6:56 PM
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#146
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Piston Honda
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I think that armor penetration is a natural thing for rogues to provide....one way around the current Sunder Armor conflict would be to add some small secondary effect (could be as little as a small DoT) to Sunder Armor so that it's not overwritten when EA is applied. A bit hack-ish, but it could work.
On the crazy/out there side of things, one interesting idea would be to allow Rogues to perform high DPS coordinated attacks with other melee DPS'ers. These combo moves would always involve a rogue, but might be different depending on who the rogue paired with. Such an arrangement could also easily scale up with the number of rogues present. Of course, from a coding perspective it'd be a fair amount of work to make that happen relative to other options, not realistic for WotLK unless Blizzard's already planning on it and hasn't told anyone, but I'm just brainstorming at this point.
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06/04/08, 8:34 PM
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#147
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is in need of adult supervision
Human Paladin
Dragonblight
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Originally Posted by Dorvan
On the crazy/out there side of things, one interesting idea would be to allow Rogues to perform high DPS coordinated attacks with other melee DPS'ers. These combo moves would always involve a rogue, but might be different depending on who the rogue paired with. Such an arrangement could also easily scale up with the number of rogues present. Of course, from a coding perspective it'd be a fair amount of work to make that happen relative to other options, not realistic for WotLK unless Blizzard's already planning on it and hasn't told anyone, but I'm just brainstorming at this point.
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This would be no different to ISB. Having rogues with poisons that allow for CoE/CoS/CoR type effects would be good without making them OP. Possibly adding a Disease Vulnerability. Or make them Fire/Frost/Shadow/Nature/Disease.
We already have the Wound Poison/MS/Aimed Shot behaviour copied, so why not others.
Other things to extend would be the Threat modification poison. Have poisons that modify the threat behaviour of certain damage types. Increased threat from Fire, reduced threat from Frost. Increased threat from melee, reduced threat from spells.
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Pewsey has heard about tact and discretion, but tends to regard them much as children view vegetables.
There are only two kinds of MMOs: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody plays. (inspired by Bjarne Stroustrup)
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06/05/08, 11:03 AM
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#148
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Piston Honda
Undead Warrior
Scarlet Crusade
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Originally Posted by Feist-Mok
The problem with boosting bleeds is the question of who actually relies on bleeds for damage? Well, there's Druids, but they have Mangle, and it seems unlikely to me that any bleedboost we get would stack with that - it could very easily just become another expose/sunder armor conflict - even still, who else is going to benefit? The only other DPS classes that use bleed effects are Warriors and Rogues. For Warriors, you're looking at boosting an aspect of their DPS that amounts to maybe 2% at best, and bringing a Rogue because it will benefit that rogue isn't exactly the sort of utility we're looking for here.
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But the major reason why bleeds are such a low % of warrior damage is that your crits reset not only the duration but the ticks of deep wounds. As you gear up you see the amount of contribution from DW decline. It's always seemed like a mechanic that should be recoded, and if it's purely meant to be a pvp talent, it should probably swap positions with impale so Fury warriors can skip those points.
In respect to the idea of a bleed poison and mangle.. First, I think it's obvious why sunder and EA don't stack. Not only does it create huge problems in PvP, it would basically necessitate that those debuffs be up on the boss at all times because they'd be the largest increases to physical dps in the game. And it's doubtful Blizzard would want us zeroing boss armor without itemization, so they'd be forced to increase boss armor to reign in physical dps and make ArP still have value, so it'd probably do nothing but force one rogue on the raid to forgo rupture for EA to maintain the status quo we have now.
Also, while it's possible it won't stack with Mangle, warriors have a talent called Trauma linked to Blood Frenzy that increases bleed damage by 30% when one of their normal attacks crit. Bloodletting increases the damage of Rend (buffed again) and Bloodbath (aoe bleed) by 75%. Both Rend and Bloodbath do 4 times their damage against a target that enrages. So there are indicators that bleeds might perform much better in wotlk than they do in TBC, if Trauma and Mangle do stack, you're looking at something like 69% bigger rupture ticks if you have an MS warrior/feral in the raid. Not a terrible boost to that finisher. The reason why I could see these abilities stacking is that it's a mechanic that could provide more sustained damage that doesn't really impact PvP dps.
It should also be noted that while currently only rogues, druids, and warriors have bleed effects, the new hunter spells/talents haven't been revealed, and a bleed isn't outside the realm of possibility or proper theme for them.
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06/05/08, 11:45 AM
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#149
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Rogue
Dragonblight (EU)
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I believe majority haven`t noticed, but WWS report of last nights Last Resort run is out with Stefang (first hunter with legendary bow) leaving rogues quite some way behind even on rogue friendly fights. I wouldn`t want to go as far as saying that this proves BM hunters (with FI effect on party) do more dps than rogues, but it`s certainly interesting to see new comparisons.
Last Resort
Wow Web Stats
Last edited by Yarema : 06/05/08 at 11:51 AM.
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06/05/08, 3:14 PM
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#150
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Bald Bull
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There's some indications that duration-refreshes on DoTs are being recoded to not be a DPS loss. There are several refresh talents available for affliction warlocks and shadow priests under the current talents, and the (leaked, not-necessarily-sourced) report is that it works correctly (at least most of the time). This should improve the DPS from deep wounds, especially for DW-fury builds that take Impale.
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