PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion - Page 102

tessarji · 09/03/08, 3:21 AM

No, these buffs will stack. In the above example you'd get 2% damage to all physical dps and 3% crit to all dps. I'm pretty sure both rogues can maintain a one-stack of wounding.

The Master Poisoner buff is equivalent to a ret paladin with Heart of the Crusader
The Blood Poisoning buff is equivalent to an arms warrior with Blood Frenzy.

Wogan · 09/03/08, 3:26 AM

If anyone wants to play with a calculator, I made this war-tools one to help me visualise the changes.
(Updated thanks Hildegard)

Hildegard · 09/03/08, 3:57 AM

Deep Assasination is even more crowded and I still have no idea where to get the points for all of this and what to leave away. Now with Master Poisoner being a "must have" and Murder being deeper in Assasination and improved Expose Armor being most likely a wanted utility for Mutilate rogues things become quite complicated. Any suggestions how a 51-13-7 build would look like ?

And could it be that you forgot one talent in Assasination that increases poison damage and afflicts the dispeller with the poison he dispelled ?

saedo · 09/03/08, 4:08 AM

Master Poisoner isn't exactly must have since it won't stack with Heart of the Crusader. Your Holy Pallies might be taking it because it's on the way to Conviction (5% melee/spell crit) and they'd be Judging all the time with the spell haste they'd get from Judgements of the Pure. Or the ret pally does it. But anyways, that's what some of our holy pallies are thinking of doing. So prob have to coordinate specs with who you got in your raid.

Valen · 09/03/08, 4:20 AM

Master poisoner is by no means must have. Throw it at paladins in raid that don't need to lose anything to get it. I sure won't in the current state. I find it funny that they don't realize that with the change to holy paladins they will judge it just fine and actually benefit from doing so, even if you don't have a ret.

Combat dagger: I thought the point of prey of the weak is to improve backstab compared to ss builds in combat. Still it probably will outdps relentless strike considering that you can also get killing spree and possibly some more goodies in assiassination without it.

RS change: weak, really weak... I really hope they just move it back to the old place, considering their "new" talent is pretty weak.

They still need to do something about the crowded assassination build, although i'm sure rogues are not going to take master poisoner in their 25 man setup at least. Someone on beta forum should remind them of this and also suggest a 3 point find weakness.

• Aldriana · 09/03/08, 4:24 AM

So, looking at that calculator, I have a few additional thoughts.

1) Assassination is still overfull. A deep-Ass build has at least 60 points in the tree that it wants to take; combined with the 15 points in Combat and the 7 in Subtlety that are highly desirable, that's rather more points than one can reasonably spend. Again, we'd need exact damage estimate to figure out which of those points get dropped, but I think the ultimate point - that there's just more points than you can take - holds. My guess is that either 51/13/7 or 59/5/7 winds up on top. Random crazy thought: might it be worth skipping SF? Like, if you're doing Mut-Mut-Finisher, 5 talent points to turn 40% of your finishers from 4-pt finishers into 5-pt finishers seems... marginal. In fact, I can pretty much guarantee it's weaker than anything else you might want to do with those points. Really, SF doesn't add enough damage to warrant being a 5-point talent; I'd argue that the actual damage gain is much more in line with a 1 point talent. Perhaps SF should be our new 31-point talent, instead of Overkill? This would make the lower half of the tree pretty tight, though the top-end (35+) would still be oversaturated.

2) For mace and sword rogues, combat currently has a natural breakpoint at 15 points - 13, if you're not using SS. After you get Imp SnD, DW Spec, and Precision (and Imp SS, if applicable), there's nothing else to take until you reach 20 points. Which honestly sort of reminds me of the old 11 to 16 points in Assassination - the beginning is really good, so everyone takes it, but after that there's a pretty significant gap before you get to anything else good. This goes away to some extent if they replace Lightning Reflexes with something good.

3) Subtlety still has an awful lot of PvE-useless talents in it; hopefully they still have more changes in store for it. It's okay above the 35-point level, but up until that point there's a definite paucity of good PvE talents.

Valen · 09/03/08, 4:27 AM

Skipping SF doesn't help with anything. Talents are distributed just fine up untill that point really. The issue is tier 8 with 10 talents, while combat has 7 talents in tier 8 as most trees.

For the tree to work, tier 8 needs to be reduced to 7 talents. 3 points find weakness and 2 points turn the table.

Aéquitas · 09/03/08, 4:30 AM

Originally Posted by Hildegard

Deep Assasination is even more crowded and I still have no idea where to get the points for all of this and what to leave away. Now with Master Poisoner being a "must have" and Murder being deeper in Assasination and improved Expose Armor being most likely a wanted utility for Mutilate rogues things become quite complicated. Any suggestions how a 51-13-7 build would look like ?

And could it be that you forgot one talent in Assasination that increases poison damage and afflicts the dispeller with the poison he dispelled ?

When looking at the talent tree it feels that we still have way to many talents in the deep part indeed. Tier 6 still has some room to be honest. If they would move focussed attacks masterpoisoner or turn the tables to that tier it would make it a bit easier to choose.

Getting relentless strikes down to 3 points would be alot better as well in my opinion. Also about that talent calc doesnt the new impr eviscerate also raise your critical strike by 10% for evisces?

Combat still feels like it misses more viable dps options compared to assasination. Either give combat some more love there or switch turn the tables with unfair adventage or something? Cause to reach 51 combat I need to use 8 quite useless fillertalents. ( improved sprint, parry and riposte and nerves of steel ) While in assasination I am about 5 points short and can spend about 61 talent points to improve my dps if needed.

Subtelity is weak but for hemorage builds and I only have to spend fillerpoints in T2. Still it could use some love in the improve my dmg department.

EDIT: Damn you guys and your fast replies

I think lowering find weakness to 3 points fixes alot. Would mean I have to spend 5 points less in assasination with my 56 point build. Only thing I would then miss is 5 points in improved poisons. I would have to see how those points match up against turn the tables

• Aldriana · 09/03/08, 4:39 AM

Skipping SF helps some, just not enough; with SF, you have 39 points of stuff worth taking by the 35 point level; dropping SF takes that to 34. So you burn one point in SF or Deadened Nerves, and get down to 56 points of highly desirable talents by the end of the tree. I suspect you also skip Turn The Tables, as it seems weak compared to other options - this gets you down to 53. Which is still a bit over, but it's a lot closer. And if you can skip Master Poisoner due to having judgements available - you're all set.

Regarding combat: the problem is not so much a lack of DPS talents - the current 41 point combat builds have 6 points of filler on the way to 41, so 8 to 51 isn't much change. The difference is that they're clumped a lot more, so you notice them a lot more than you do at current. And note that if they replace Lightning Reflexes with a DPS talent, that will go a long way towards fixing it.

Ztil · 09/03/08, 4:43 AM

7/51/13 could certainly be an interesting Combat specc and give sword rogues serrated blades(+armor pene and +bleed dmg) while still getting relentless strikes just like before. We wont get murder, but does that really matter considering most of the bosses in TBC turned out to be Demon or Undead anyway?

I really, really hope that combat sword specc still comes out as THE high-end dps specc. I dont want to see some clown with 2 daggers jump around and do high dmg in mutilate specc. And I certainly dont want to see that clown being my orc rogue. I mean seriously, orc+daggers is not a pretty sight

Hildegard · 09/03/08, 4:49 AM

Originally Posted by Ztil

7/51/13 could certainly be an interesting Combat specc and give sword rogues serrated blades(+armor pene and +bleed dmg) while still getting relentless strikes just like before.

It stacks even better with mace spec.

sp00n · 09/03/08, 4:51 AM

Really disappointed with the RS change, worst change I can remember so far.
Honestly, they should either leave it where it was or just make it trainable, but taking the single best talent (at least before this nerf) and sticking it into another tree, basically forcing you to spread your points into all 3 talent trees, is just plain stupid.

Really makes me wonder about what they have in mind with rogues - if at all *cough*.

Also, the change to Murder now forces you to pick up either 2 points in Improved Evi or Remorless Attacks to be able to proceed to Lethality. Some new awkward way to make Eviscerate more appealing in comparison to Rupture?

// Edit
If you'd go down that route. 7/51/13 looks way better than taking Lethality.

Iliyan · 09/03/08, 4:52 AM

War Tools :: Talent tree Rogues as per Blue

Hmm, for this mutilate build, without Master Poisoner my question is:
4% specials crit % from turn the tables vs 2% dagger crit% from Close quarter combat?
I suppose Focused attacks would prefer the CqC 2%, since it affects white crits as well.

Hildegard · 09/03/08, 4:56 AM

I think mostly everyone agrees that Eviscerate is more fun than Rupture and making it a viable finisher isn't bad at all.

Kukulkan · 09/03/08, 4:56 AM

I really dislike the changes, specially the Relenltess, i though the idea was to make trees less dependant, now all combat builds are looking like combat daggers having to spend 5 points in subtely to what we usually only spent 1.

Murder was a decent filler, although not much use at end game, with move to a tier7 going down for lethality will force a rogue to take imp evis (or if you are daggers its ok with punc wounds), still uncertain to me if we will evis on pve.

Lethality should be either lower to 3 points or stay as 5points but move up a tier, to give a little more options to none dagger rogues to access it. Even to combat dagger rogues will get benefit out of needing to spec 7 points on subtely.

I like the utility buffs, but now blizard will have an excuse to nerf us below any dps class, just will have to see how it ends up.