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Old 09/24/08, 7:09 PM   #2526
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Err...would you mind taking a look at the Roguecraft sheet and tell me if there's something wrong with its models, then? When I keep Focused Attacks the way it currently is, I consistently find that a slow/fast combo with DP/IP outdamages a fast/slow combo with IP/DP, using equivalent weapons (Hateful Gladiator's Shanker/Shiv/Mutilator).

Originally Posted by Enervate
Yep, still a fucking idiot.

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Old 09/24/08, 7:51 PM   #2527
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Well, that I've found so far, two things, both on the DPS page:

1) Cells I32:I37. Is there a reason why column G is excluded from this sum? You're counting the extra hits from Rupture and Eviscerate, but not from Envenom, which is part of the reason the difference is showing up - there are only half as many "extra" attacks from finishers on the MH as there should be.

2) Cells O9 and O10; one of these has base IP damage at 250, and the other has it at 350; hence, MH poisons aren't hitting as hard as they should.

Making these two changes, I find slow OH/fast MH comes out 34 DPS ahead of the reverse, which is really pretty close to the 30 DPS I estimated.

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Old 09/24/08, 8:31 PM   #2528
Havenwood
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Lightning's Blade
In build 8982, according to the combat log, the actual energy gained from Focused Attacks is always 2 energy, despite the tooltip saying otherwise.

1/3 is a 33% chance to gain 2 energy, 2/3 is a 66% chance to gain 2 energy, and 3/3 is a 100% chance to gain 2 energy.

Last edited by Havenwood : 09/24/08 at 8:37 PM.

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Old 09/24/08, 8:39 PM   #2529
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
Vulajin's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Havenwood View Post
In build 8982, according to the combat log, the actual energy gained from Focused Attacks is always 2 energy, despite the tooltip saying otherwise.

1/3 is a 33% chance to gain 2 energy, 2/3 is a 66% chance to gain 2 energy, and 3/3 is a 100% chance to gain 2 energy.
Verified for 1/3 Focused Attacks. 100 crits, 34 procs.

Verified for 2/3 Focused Attacks. 100 crits, 71 procs.

Verified for 3/3 Focused Attacks. 100 crits, 100 procs.

(Also, thanks for pointing out those blatantly stupid errors, Ald.)

Last edited by Vulajin : 09/24/08 at 8:48 PM.

Originally Posted by Enervate
Yep, still a fucking idiot.

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Old 09/24/08, 8:51 PM   #2530
silotallaja
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Vek'nilash (EU)
Subtlety

Opportunity now works all the time. (Old - Only increased the damage of attacks from behind)
This is a bit vague to me, does this include all attacks? Like SS and hemo and stuff, or does it mean all the abilites stated in the tooltip (garrote, ambush, muti and backstab)?

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Old 09/24/08, 8:52 PM   #2531
Zaniel
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Aggramar
Originally Posted by silotallaja View Post
This is a bit vague to me, does this include all attacks? Like SS and hemo and stuff, or does it mean all the abilites stated in the tooltip (garrote, ambush, muti and backstab)?
Just Backstab, Mutilate, Garrote, and Ambush, but constant 10%/20% increase to those four.

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Old 09/24/08, 10:08 PM   #2532
lolswordspec
Glass Joe
 
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Human Rogue
 
Doomhammer
So, at the end of the day when all is said and done, Mutilate Builds get -3% special damage which is probably less than a 1% damage nerf.

Shiv spec remains unchanged, Combat remains unbuffed, and weapon speed questions remain unanswered. Is anyone else slightly disappointed?

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Old 09/24/08, 10:27 PM   #2533
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Nope. We've been getting a few changes each patch, which are generally improvements to the overall balance of the class. It's certainly not finished yet, but, as they still have a month and a half to find tune it, I'd say they're right on track. So no, I'm not even remotely disappointed - so far, in fact, I've been pretty happy with what I'm seeing out of Blizzard.

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Old 09/24/08, 10:34 PM   #2534
Neto-
Bald Bull
 
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wut
Gnome Warlock
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by lolswordspec View Post
So, at the end of the day when all is said and done, Mutilate Builds get -3% special damage which is probably less than a 1% damage nerf.

Shiv spec remains unchanged, Combat remains unbuffed, and weapon speed questions remain unanswered. Is anyone else slightly disappointed?
Well, Focused Attacks is 2 energy instead of 3, as mentioned before in this thread, which is a pretty significant change.

Disappointed? Far from that. I'm rather unimpressed with how the Combat tree is setup at the moment, more specifically, tier 4 and 5, but other than that, no complaints. I mean, I wouldn't mind a change to Relentless Strikes... but I can live with that.

Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty

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Old 09/24/08, 11:24 PM   #2535
Elassar
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Mannoroth
Doesn't look like anyone has mentioned this yet, but you can no longer use special attacks while in the middle of Killing Spree. You can, however, still use non-damaging abilities (Ad Rush, Blade Flurry, Sprint, Evasion, Vanish etc.).

Boo.

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Old 09/25/08, 12:41 AM   #2536
Oscarvil
Piston Honda
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Proudmoore
It's not too bad. Killing spree should only take 2.5 seconds so if you activate it on zero energy you'll only have 25 by the time it's done. The more worrying thing is if it stops autoattacks as well as special attacks in the new build.

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Old 09/25/08, 12:56 AM   #2537
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
I suspect that change is for PvP reasons; while it has little-to-no effect on PvE DPS (assuming you still autoattack during it) it does reduce the potential for ridiculous burst damage in 2.5 seconds.

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Old 09/25/08, 2:25 AM   #2538
Elassar
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Mannoroth
At first glance I figured it was just a PvP nerf, then Oscarvil's point got me curious so I took another look at it and not only can you not auto-attack while Spreeing, but it also turns off your auto-attack entirely (and you cannot re-engage it mid-Spree)

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Old 09/25/08, 2:27 AM   #2539
basto
Von Kaiser
 
basto's Avatar
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Skywall
I was just playing around on the PTR and discovered something interesting... I was doing some DPS testing on the servants in blasted lands when one of the felguard patrols walked over me and started fighting me as well, I figured i would just ignore him and focus on my DPS test. A few seconds later the felguard died which was puzzling to me since I did not have blade flurry up at the moment. Then it hit me... unfair advantage will hit whoever attacked you even if you do not have them targeted... very interesting.

Makes me wonder how viable it could be for evasion tanking even with the once per second limitation.

Sorry if this has already been discussed in here but I have not seen in my brief perusal of the thread.

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Old 09/25/08, 3:39 AM   #2540
chalon
Founder of the Chalonverse
 
Chalon
Night Elf Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by lolswordspec View Post
So, at the end of the day when all is said and done, Mutilate Builds get -3% special damage which is probably less than a 1% damage nerf.

Shiv spec remains unchanged, Combat remains unbuffed, and weapon speed questions remain unanswered. Is anyone else slightly disappointed?
Well, they've acknowledged that Combat is behind Mutilate, and they've said they are still looking into increasing Combat's damage. There's not really much we can do on that front, just wait for their changes, run the numbers on it, and see where everything stands.

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Old 09/25/08, 3:41 AM   #2541
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Notes on Killing Spree from extensively playing around with it tonight:

- As posted above, it turns off your auto attack and won't allow you to turn it back on until the ability completes.
- It uses the special attack hit rate. (Obvious, but verified anyway.)
- It does not glance. (Obvious, but verified anyway.)
- It does not proc Sword Specialization.
- It does not proc Combat Potency.
- It does proc Mongoose.
- It does not appear to be able to dodged, regardless of expertise or Surprise Attacks. I'm not 100% sure on this, but I've been casting the ability periodically with 0/2 Weapon Expertise, no Surprise Attacks, and 0 expertise rating, and haven't seen a dodge by the Heroic Training Dummy about thirty minutes.

Originally Posted by Enervate
Yep, still a fucking idiot.

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Old 09/25/08, 4:37 AM   #2542
gokpog
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Nefarian (EU)
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Notes on Killing Spree from extensively playing around with it tonight:
...
Since it looks as if it's treated as a special attack, are the attacks normalized?

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Old 09/25/08, 4:46 AM   #2543
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
Vulajin's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by gokpog View Post
Since it looks as if it's treated as a special attack, are the attacks normalized?
Yes, they use normalized AP damage contribution.

(edit) Another random tidbit, the target selection by Killing Spree is 100% uncontrollable, it does not depend on your current target or other targets within the radius of your target. It only depends on the targets that are within 10 yards of you, it will randomly choose from those one at a time. It does seem to choose for maximum target distribution first, and if there aren't enough targets to split up all five attacks, then it'll repeat target selection, again aiming for maximum target distribution, until it finishes.

Also, the eligible targets are determined by your initial position when performing the ability, not by any positions you take while performing it.

Last edited by Vulajin : 09/25/08 at 5:06 AM.

Originally Posted by Enervate
Yep, still a fucking idiot.

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Old 09/25/08, 6:03 AM   #2544
Waldar
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Rogue
 
Archimonde (EU)
With the change of the ability i wonder if killing spree is still hitting two targets if cast while under blade furry ?

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Old 09/25/08, 6:08 AM   #2545
Akka
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Ner'zhul (EU)
Originally Posted by weka View Post
Tailoring just got a decent melee buff:

Swordguard Embroidery changed to "Embroiders a magical pattern into your cloak, causing your damaging melee attacks to sometimes increase your attack power by 300 for 15 sec. You can only embroider your own cloak and embroidering your cloak will cause it to become soulbound. Requires 400 Tailoring to use." (Old - Ignore 1000 of your target's armor)
There is something eluding me here...
Tailoring is typically (exclusively ?) for cloth classes - what would any non-cloth class get from tailoring ?
And I don't see which cloth class would benefit from AP increase. Leather, yes, but cloth ?
Am I missing something ?

*puzzled*

If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !

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Old 09/25/08, 6:51 AM   #2546
Conq[SUN]
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
There is something eluding me here...
Tailoring is typically (exclusively ?) for cloth classes - what would any non-cloth class get from tailoring ?
And I don't see which cloth class would benefit from AP increase. Leather, yes, but cloth ?
Am I missing something ?

*puzzled*
Just because it is typically for cloth classes doesn't mean that there aren't any mellee with tailoring. I know a few myself.
I'm glad Blizzard didn't forget them.

On the other hand I see more of a pattern with getting tradeskills just to enchant an item and then dropping the skill again. Just like we see today with enchanting. So when you are maxed in items you get all the different proffesions just to enchant your items.

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Old 09/25/08, 6:56 AM   #2547
Sneakiest
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
The Maelstrom (EU)
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
There is something eluding me here...
Tailoring is typically (exclusively ?) for cloth classes - what would any non-cloth class get from tailoring ?
And I don't see which cloth class would benefit from AP increase. Leather, yes, but cloth ?
Am I missing something ?

*puzzled*
People who take up the class for economical reasons maybe? Or alts with professions you don't have on your main? Personally I don't see tailoring as a huge money maker, but it's comparable to how they put spell damage fur linings available for Leatherworkers -- though that does make sense for elemental shamen. Other than them, no typical LW classes should be needing it.

Perhaphs they're trying to move away exactly from having tailoring as exclusively a cloth-class related profession and applying the same to Leatherworking?

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Old 09/25/08, 7:21 AM   #2548
 pewsey
hey there good lookin'
 
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Dwarf Shaman
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Sneakiest View Post
People who take up the class for economical reasons maybe? Or alts with professions you don't have on your main? Personally I don't see tailoring as a huge money maker, but it's comparable to how they put spell damage fur linings available for Leatherworkers -- though that does make sense for elemental shamen. Other than them, no typical LW classes should be needing it.

Perhaphs they're trying to move away exactly from having tailoring as exclusively a cloth-class related profession and applying the same to Leatherworking?
Resto Shaman, Resto Druids?

Pewsey has heard about tact and discretion, but tends to regard them much as children view vegetables.
There are only two kinds of MMOs: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody plays. (inspired by Bjarne Stroustrup)

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Old 09/25/08, 7:22 AM   #2549
Akka
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Ner'zhul (EU)
Originally Posted by Sneakiest View Post
People who take up the class for economical reasons maybe? Or alts with professions you don't have on your main? Personally I don't see tailoring as a huge money maker, but it's comparable to how they put spell damage fur linings available for Leatherworkers -- though that does make sense for elemental shamen. Other than them, no typical LW classes should be needing it.
Moonkins and trees of life will tend to disagree, I think.

Well, I suppose that Blizzard wish to make any profession giving a little bonus to whatever character use it, even if having a class completely unrelated with the profession itself. But I keep wondering the use of being a tailor on a mélée class. Though it doesn't bother me, it only puzzles me.

If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !

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Old 09/25/08, 8:16 AM   #2550
Sneakiest
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
The Maelstrom (EU)
I stand corrected (and feeling stupid). Carry on.

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