ant1pathy

I was hoping a Mace/Blood Spatter/Serrated Blades spec might pump out comparable damage through Rupture and stacking ArP, but my theorycrafting is rather... nubile ;D. Very interested, as Maces as a Rogue always seemed fun (and I have yet to buy my s2 weapons; kinda holding out to see what tops).

 

jdpowers19

Given a boss armor value of 10900, 5 stacks of Sunder Armor, Faerie Fire, and Curse of Recklessness, that value is reduced to 5105. Serrated Blades reduces a further 640 armor, giving the boss 4465 armor.

4465 - ( .15 * 4465 ) = 3795.25 boss armor after Mace Spec. That works out to be about a 3.5% damage increase. Certainly better than it was before dps-wise, but it seems it still won't be able to compete with Swords Spec or CQC.

Edit: If this is accurate, that means that Mace Spec is actually worth less as you gain ArP. I can't imagine a talent scaling inversely with a synergistic stat is intended.

 

Alexsiss

I beleive this was a pvp change so rogues/warriors wouldnt be getting leather and cloth to 0 armor as they are now. So yeah it scales inversely it also makes you sacrifice an enormus amount to get 100% armor pen.

 

• Aldriana

CoR and FF don't stack, as a note.

Additionally, while it would require testing, my assumption is that ArPen on gear would apply additively with mace spec, and exhibits the usual positive scaling. So my guess would be that stacking ArPen would increase the relative damage of such a build - whether it's possible to get enough to be worth doing is, of course, the major question. My guess is it's not, but I don't think we can pronounce Mace builds dead quite yet.

 

jdpowers19

My mistake on CoR and FF. I'm a bit new to hardcore theorycrafting.

Is that to say that you believe the armor reduction provided by mace spec would be calculated before Serrated Blades and any personal ArP?

Let me try again then.

10900 armor - 3925 from sunder and 1260 from Faerie Fire = 5715 armor. Let's say Mace Spec provides ( .15 * 5715) = 857.25 ArP, Serrated Blades Provides 640, and let's assume 0 personal ArP for now. That leaves us with a 5075 armor target pre Mace Spec and 4217.25 armor target after Mace Spec.

That works out to more like a %4.4 damage increase, which is closer, but still not as good as Sword or CQC. In order to gain even just a 5% increase in damage from Mace Spec, one must be sporting about 2300 ArP on gear (or around 329 ArP rating) from gear. I'd appreciate someone smarter than me checking these numbers, but it seems like mace spec still won't really be able to compete in PvE.

 

ant1pathy

If the Mace spec applied the 15% ArP to base armor, would it be comparable?

 

• Aldriana

Gear ArP works differently from Serrated Blades (to be frank, I'm a bit surprised that Serrated Blades hasn't been chaged to be percentage-based as well). ArPen rating now reduces effective armor by a pecent, the same way that Mace Spec does. So my guess would be if you had enough ArPen rating to reduce enemy armor by, say, 5%, plus Mace Spec, you'd wind up with a net 20% reduction in enemy armor after passive debuffs.

So, for instance, assuming 10900 armor base, minus 5125 from boss debuffs, and another 640 from Serrated Blades puts the boss at 5135. If you have no ArPen on gear, Mace Spec will thus reduce enemy armor from 5135 to 4365; but if you have, say, 5% additional reduction from gear (putting you at 4878 without Mace Spec), Mace Spec will provide the same 770 armor reduction, taking enemy armor down to 4108. And 4878 to 4108 is a larger damage increase than 5135 to 4365.

So, hypothetically, given *enough* ArPen on gear, Mace spec could be quite good - assuming it stacks this way. How much reduction it would take to make it competitive with Sword Spec - and whether that amount is in any way reasonable to achieve - is of course the question. My guess would be it's probably impractical, but detailed numbers will need to be run.

 

PSGarak

Question about Mutilate leveling, and the removal of the positional requirement.
In TBC with mutilate, and in vanilla with backstab, using gouge and kidney shot while soloing was a necessary part of the spec in order to maintain positional requirements. Not that they don't have benefits in themselves, 3-CP openers and 4-6 second stuns have their own advantages, but the positioning requirement is what made them required. Without them you didn't have a mainline attack. With the positioning requirement on Mutilate gone, is CS/KS as necessary as it used to be?

KS is probably still a really good finishing move compared to eviscerate/envenom because KS tends to have things dead on the other end, and the DD finishers don't, so you take less damage. Cheap Shot, I'm not as sure. Especially with improved ambush, is the newly available ambush -> mutilate -> KS playstyle comparable to the old CS -> mutilate -> KS one? Would it allow you to finish a mob off with the first eviscerate?

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Rangvald

New to this theorycrafting scene and new to the forums, so first off, Hello!

Now..
As most ppl im kinda hyped about the mutilatebuff (Call it whatever you want), and in between raiding (Yes, ppl still raid this close to expansion ) ive been hitting dummys in SW on the PTR

Im T5/lowerT6-equality geared and using Talon and S2 Quickblade. Usually end up at about ~1k dps on bossfights in 25m raids (Fully buffed - flasks and food, everything!).

Ive been combat swords since pre TBC when combat was pewpew for PvP. The only dagger ive used since level 60 is the exalted AV one, witch I used for Ambushing clothies back in the day :P.

Decided to try out mutilate, but in lack of daggers to use I bought myself 2 of the SSO-revered ones!

With this specc ( 42-12-7 ) I was pushing about 1.2-1.3k dps UNBUFFED! When I specced back to a combatspecc I was doing about 1.2k with bladeflurry and AdRush on.

So with a paid of better daggers and perhaps some tweak to the specc I could probably do alot better! Saving badges for Blade of Serration and The mutilator atm.

Any thoughts about all this??

 

luke_twigger

I'd hold off spending any Badges until they've finished tinkering with the talents, as Combat may get buffed enough to be top again, so then you could buy the Vanir's fists if that happens. Also bear in mind that you would currently want the faster offhand dagger (i.e. Swift Blade of Uncertainty > The Mutilator).

Also you might find 51/5/5 better as a lvl70 build.

 

KasumiRevy

I've been leveling on beta as mutilate and I see no reason to Ambush, anything yellow and under die to cs->mut->kidney->mut (at worst your spamming evis at the end OR disarm). No damage taken. Overkill plays a role in this, it's easier then ever before to lay someone out on the initial opening.

From a pvp perspective, I have been using the same method, and very few survive that attack pattern either. ( I have a sneaking feeling that resilience is either bugged or not working all together, due to the ease of mutilate killing others.)

At present I see no reason to use ambush except in pve situations.

 

Rangvald

I dont see how 5% more hit and 50% longer SnD can be traded away for something? As I said - Its for PvE!


I allways thought that Mutilate was Slow daggers, did I miss something huge? :P

 

guljiny

Check out the dps spreadsheet. You'll find that a 51/5/5 mutilate or a 5/51/5 combat swords beats the alternatives.

Due to the changes to poisons fast daggers > slow ones for mutilate specs.

 

Rangvald

Ok, I will check spreadsheets when I get home from work Thanks!

Did not know that poisons did so mutch of the mutilatedmg that it was worth having faster daggers! Does this apply to the MH aswell? :O In that case I can just buy 2 MerciShivs and test with that instead (Unless I decide to stick to combat swords that is )

Thanks for helping a nooby swedish person out :P

 

swelt

I would suggest you don't buy two "Off-hand" daggers, you can only wield 1 shiv.

Personally, I hope that Blizzard redress the balancing issues that are leading to the idea of slow daggers being sub-optimal before release. It is counter-intuitive for a bigger heavier weapon to be weaker, it flies in the face of a great history of main hand daggers, it doesn't work with the current pvp/arena/dungeon itemisation, etc. From what I took away a couple of pages ago, the gap was closed a bit by the FA nerf. What else would it take to put slow daggers back on top?

 

Kasrai - Exo

I think the idea of normalizing poison damage in accordance with weapon speed would be the way to go, as many people have said already. Something along the lines of normal poison damage which gets reduced in damage once you reach base weapon speed of 1.7 and faster. Maybe an additional 10% damage reduction in poisons for every .1 faster below 1.8 a weapons base speed is. This would allow a MH of 1.8 speed to be usable in a Mutilate build, and may even help double slow daggers make a comeback.

This wouldn't hurt a Combat build using SS as a CP generator much since a fast OH is still optimal for Combat Potency, and at the same time it will tune down a Combat Shiv build enough so that it may still be competitive, but won't be showing as a top DPS spec.

Just my thoughts on the issue.

 

Rangvald

Meh, did not realise it was Off-Hand! See, told you I was a Noobe :P


Anyway, been doing some reading (Yes, bored at work!) and it seems to be about 50/50 what ppl say about the OHspeed!

Also ppl using the oposite poison setup than from swords - DP on the MH and IP on the OH! Sure, IP does nice dmg now when it scales with AP, but for this to "work" a fast dagger would be better I guess.

Will have to get a slow dagger on the PTR aswell to do some experiments

 

folderol

That's wrong. The new WF increases the value of Sword Spec as we're getting more OH Sword Spec proc and a similar amount of MH strikes but without the AP boost. An OH Sword will have an even bigger advantage over different types of weapons for Combat Builds.

As for the options for the MH, the results look close enough that you'll have to use a spreadsheet to check which weapon combination gives the most DPS with your gear.

 

Kharnaseus

I certainly see your perspective. My biggest problem with it is the idea of tired constants. I would hope after so many years we or the designers have found a different way to do things, but not necessarily different for the sake of change; rather, betterment.

The proposed changes so far are fabulous. For awhile I didn't want 51 point talents for WotLK, I wanted them to make SOLID three-tree's of greatness and focus on what we already had. That's obviously before I saw the innovation they put into our current BETA tree's and the time that's going into making them fully functional for November.

I like the idea of everything we once knew getting purged. Forcing yourself to adapt to the game is what differentiates those mediocre and exceptional players. I would be a bit saddened if they changed some of our current BETA abilities to be more in line with our current live truths, e.g. destroying FA to retain slow daggers or something similar.

 

Leto

It's fine if they change the paradigm, but not fine in my opinion if they don't do it consistently, and don't itemize congruently.

If fast daggers are the way to go, give us fast daggers, and don't make pvp require slow daggers. Having to get two completely different sets of daggers would be cumbersome.

Rogue at heart.

 

Tinwhisker

But wouldn't that be exactly in line with what Blizz wants? Isn't it part of their goal to make PvP weapons inferior for PvE and vise verse? Assassination then is split on talents between PvE and PvP much like the druid feral tree is for bear/kitty emphasis. Lots of overlap but key talents for min/max would require a respec.

Wouldn't slow PvE dropped daggers be for hunters/shaman/etc and fast PvE daggers for rogues then?

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

Killashandra

I think that's the point though - based on what we've seen so far, the itemization of daggers is heavily weighted towards the 1.8 speed slow daggers that we have now. I think there was a post a few pages back that had the number of wotlk daggers broken out by speed, and it was 90% slow daggers.

Which leads you to think that the devs designing the class changes that are weighting pve in favor of fast daggers main/off hand aren't talking to the guys itemizing the dungeons (or they don't understand what they are doing, which is a scarier thought).

anyway, that's my frustration... i'd like to know what daggers i need to pick up in the short term, but it's basically a waiting game at this point.

 

Leto

So far as changing stats such that you'd want something with resilience for pvp, and without for pve yes, but something as drastic as weapon speed I am unsure. Most dps classes in the game don't need to go for a different type of weapon for pvp v pve. Warlocks, mages, shadow priests, hunters, etc just get the best weapon available from either pvp or pve, and they are sufficient to be competitive in either field, with either spec.

Rogue at heart.

 

innoue

I do believe that Spec would have been viable post deadly brew nerf. Also Kasumi did you consider the Hemmo Glyph which added a 40% bonus on the debuff.

 

Pharmacon

It's been mentioned several times before, but I feel it's worth restating as everyone keeps glossing over this fact: while fast daggers are currently theorycrafted to out DPS slow ones, slow daggers are more plentiful from raid bosses. Therefore either talents/mechanics need to change so that slow daggers outperform fast daggers or fast daggers need to be more readily available in PvE. While I do think that we should have a slow MH, that's not pertinent as any argument for what anyone thinks we should or shouldn't be wielding will trace back to personal opinion or RP. Let's stick to facts and math.

As for distinction between PvP and PvE weapons. It can't really be delineated between the two. In order to not give PvE players a foot up on PvP players, weapon damage has to be relatively similar otherwise you have the problem like in vanilla wow where people run around in T3 and destroy non-PvE players. Sure you can make certain weapon types and speeds more favorable for PvP or PvE but that would generally only make a difference of < 5% damage. On the other hand it would be nice to have weapons from PvP (or badges for that matter) not be the best weapons you can get a hold of for 90% of players.