PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion - Page 105

Kharnaseus · 09/26/08, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Pharmacon

It's been mentioned several times before, but I feel it's worth restating as everyone keeps glossing over this fact: while fast daggers are currently theorycrafted to out DPS slow ones, slow daggers are more plentiful from raid bosses. Therefore either talents/mechanics need to change so that slow daggers outperform fast daggers or fast daggers need to be more readily available in PvE. While I do think that we should have a slow MH, that's not pertinent as any argument for what anyone thinks we should or shouldn't be wielding will trace back to personal opinion or RP. Let's stick to facts and math.

As for distinction between PvP and PvE weapons. It can't really be delineated between the two. In order to not give PvE players a foot up on PvP players, weapon damage has to be relatively similar otherwise you have the problem like in vanilla wow where people run around in T3 and destroy non-PvE players. Sure you can make certain weapon types and speeds more favorable for PvP or PvE but that would generally only make a difference of < 5% damage. On the other hand it would be nice to have weapons from PvP (or badges for that matter) not be the best weapons you can get a hold of for 90% of players.

Sure, I agree with that as well as what others have said, however, I'm sure most of the designers will look to us to figure out how their changes will affect gameplay. How many weeks/months of internal testing do they go through while we'll catch something in the first few minutes? Also, this is the entry level dungeon with first pass loot. I'm anxious to see what happens a few patches down the road.

Entendre · 09/26/08, 1:44 PM

What they need to do is increase the relative damage contribution of mutilate itself relative to poison procs, and/or increase the relative contribution of finishers vs poisons. Perhaps make Eviscerate and/or Envenom scale with main hand weapon damage.

Nerfing FA didn't help slower weapons at all. In my experience, it made maintaining a strong CttC rotation impossible with slow daggers. At 3 energy per tick, I could keep up a 4-5pt envenom/rupture cycle with two 1.8 speed daggers. At 2 per tick, I am reduced to 3 pt envenoms at best, and it barely outperforms just using SnD from what I can tell. Maybe it's just me, but the reduced ticks seem like a huge penalty against slow weapons

Leto · 09/26/08, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by Entendre

What they need to do is increase the relative damage contribution of mutilate itself relative to poison procs, and/or increase the relative contribution of finishers vs poisons. Perhaps make Eviscerate and/or Envenom scale with main hand weapon damage.

That's tricky to do without unbalancing things in pvp.

jdpowers19 · 09/26/08, 2:08 PM

Using a 51/3/7 and 1.8 MH/1.5 OH, I had no trouble keeping a 4-5 Rupture 4-5 Envenom build going smoothly. Perhaps your crit is on the low side Entendre?

I've also experimented with a 4-5 Envenom if DP stacks >= 4, otherwise Rupture type of cycle. Very rough testing shows them pretty close. Anyone tried anything like this yet?

Entendre · 09/26/08, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by jdpowers19

Using a 51/3/7 and 1.8 MH/1.5 OH, I had no trouble keeping a 4-5 Rupture 4-5 Envenom build going smoothly. Perhaps your crit is on the low side Entendre?

Around 26% crit unbuffed, same build except with Blood Spatter and TtT instead of Master Poisoner. I suppose that crit buffs and a fast OH could make the difference.

◊ chalon · 09/26/08, 2:39 PM

I was trying out the fast main hand with IP (1.5s), slow off-hand with DP (1.8s) setup last night, and I had no problem at all maintaining a the 4-5 Rupture/4-5 Envenom cycle. In some instances I'd actually do 2 Envenoms due to the previous Rupture still being on the target.

ER WotLK Beta Raid History

I did pretty well, but as you can see Hysteria is extremely powerful in a fight like Patchwerk. 1 minute of 20% damage in a 4 minute fight, wow. That particular DK beat me on Patchwerk by a healthy margin, then respecced to Unholy and beat me down on Loatheb as well. Though to be fair, I did make a pretty big blunder on Loatheb. Patchwerk was a nearly flawless cycle though. But I could have probably had a 1-2% room for improvement on my Patchwerk numbers there I'd say.

I really want to be able to run the 25-man with the full suite of buffs, but unfortunately it's been tough to get a good group together, so I've mostly been running Naxx 10.

EDIT: 20%, not 30% for Hysteria.

◊ Shaker · 09/26/08, 3:51 PM

Hysteria is only +20% damage, but yeah, it's up 25% of the time, which is kinda crazy.

◊ chalon · 09/26/08, 4:00 PM

On, you're right, 20%. Yeah, the trick will be convincing a Blood DK to give you the Hysteria

. Unfortunately Tricks doesn't give you that much to barter with, since it only lasts 6s.

◊ Shaker · 09/26/08, 5:00 PM

Well, I think a lot of it will come down to whether or not threat mechanics make DKs threat capped.

Of course, if rogues end up doing more damage than DKs, on fights it matters raid leaders could call it that way - but who knows.

Salamir · 09/26/08, 5:20 PM

Originally Posted by Shaker

Well, I think a lot of it will come down to whether or not threat mechanics make DKs threat capped.

Of course, if rogues end up doing more damage than DKs, on fights it matters raid leaders could call it that way - but who knows.

If, according to the developers, everyone is within a margin of error from each other dps-wise, doesn't that imply that there will be no threat cap issues? If I can do, say 4k dps but must use vanish to dump aggro in order to achieve it, how can a class that can't dump aggro do 3.8k dps?

I don't think TotT and MD will make up that kind of difference (mathies?). If we need threat dumps to reach our full potential, then someone is telling lies to all the hybrid classes.

koaschten · 09/26/08, 5:20 PM

Threat is currently an absolute non-issue for rogues and no problem for the rest of the dps. In a recent Naxx 10 clear i rarely managed to get above 35% threat on boss fights with our prot-warrior tanking.

Salamir · 09/26/08, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by koaschten

Threat is currently an absolute non-issue for rogues and no problem for the rest of the dps. In a recent Naxx 10 clear i rarely managed to get above 35% threat on boss fights with our prot-warrior tanking.

Doesn't this diminish the usefulness and utility of TotT? Is it reduced to a 6sec 15% buff on someone?

I can see there be situationally useful times for it (ie, Boss that dumps aggro table, aoe pulls, etc), but if it's not needed to keep all other dpsers below the threat cap, it's utility is somewhat marginal. No?

• Aldriana · 09/26/08, 5:34 PM

I imagine it will be useful for helping tanks pick stuff up, particularly when there are multiple targets, but it sounds like, on a sustained boss fight, it will mostly be useful for the DPS boost, yes. That said: a 20%-uptime 15% DPS boost is nothing to turn up your nose at.

◊ chalon · 09/26/08, 5:35 PM

Threat capping definitely doesn't play an issue with all the currently implemented raid fights at least. On fights where threat might be a concern (such as due to an aggro wipe), 1-2 TotT and 1-2 MD every 30s will be more than enough to keep the tank ahead of the raid. The only scenario where I could see threat playing a huge issue is if they implemented another fight with a Firemaw-esque mechanic, which while I can't predict their design it seems like they've shyed away from the concept.

And in any event, I'd imagine that Ret Pallies would be the first to threat cap in melee range theoretically, since (EDIT: I'm wrong) they don't have any inherent -% threat. Whereas Warriors have Zerker Stance and Death Knights have Blood Presence.

Originally Posted by Aldriana

I imagine it will be useful for helping tanks pick stuff up, particularly when there are multiple targets, but it sounds like, on a sustained boss fight, it will mostly be useful for the DPS boost, yes. That said: a 20%-uptime 15% DPS boost is nothing to turn up your nose at.

Yeah, the DPS boost of Tricks is definitely nice, but it's also hard to hit the ~3700 DPS "worth the energy" number at current gear levels in 10-mans. Hysteria on the other hand is a 20% DPS boost with a 25% uptime. But of course, it's also more situationally useful in the sense that while you can easily use it on Patchwerk without worry, you aren't going to be able to use it on fights with a decent amount of consistent raid damage.

EDIT: Added reply to Aldriana.

EDIT 2: Ret Pallies do have -% threat as well!

Kayoto · 09/26/08, 5:41 PM

Originally Posted by chalon

Threat capping definitely doesn't play an issue with all the currently implemented raid fights at least. On fights where threat might be a concern (such as due to an aggro wipe), 1-2 TotT and 1-2 MD every 30s will be more than enough to keep the tank ahead of the raid. The only scenario where I could see threat playing a huge issue is if they implemented another fight with a Firemaw-esque mechanic, which while I can't predict their design it seems like they've shyed away from the concept.

And in any event, I'd imagine that Ret Pallies would be the first to threat cap in melee range theoretically, since (correct me if I'm wrong) they don't have any inherent -% threat. Whereas Warriors have Zerker Stance and Death Knights have Blood Presence.

Fanaticism - Spell - World of Warcraft

Not that it matters, unless they change current threat mechanics -- tanks apparently are able to stay 50%+ above all the DPS with relative ease.

jdpowers19 · 09/26/08, 10:16 PM

Has there been any discussion of whether to switch to a DP MH IP OH poison setup for a mutilate build? I did some quick testing on the target dummies in Org on PTR and found that while my envenom damage and deadly damage remained the same, I gained about 4-5% more damage from instant poison when swapping instant poison to off hand.

Edit: I suppose I should clarify my question. Has it been proven that putting IP on the faster of the 2 daggers will do more dps?

Pyriana · 09/26/08, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Arindelest

A fair point; however I would assume that you'd want to use it on cooldown and that the benefits of doing so would outweigh waiting out a Blade Flurry/(and especially) Heroism. Of course there's the negligible effects of Mongoose which naturally you wouldn't be able to predict, that's 2% or 4.04% attack speed right there which you might (or might not) have at any given point in time, and you could have a fraction of that based on whether they proc at some point during the Spree.

Finally you do lose a non-negligible amount of MH attacks from Sword Spec (assuming Sword Spec *did* work before on auto attacks during the Spree), By my count about 0.25 MH attacks. All in all I do think my estimates are in the right ballpark as to the degree of the nerf.

Is killing spree normalized? Have people thought of equipping 2 slow high dps weapons in both hands for the 5 hits?

Arindelest · 09/27/08, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by Pyriana

Is killing spree normalized? Have people thought of equipping 2 slow high dps weapons in both hands for the 5 hits?

I would assume it is; however, switching to a slow OH sword would not be that huge a benefit anyways.

If we assume a 2.6 OH and a 1.5 OH, both identical in every way except for having different speeds (and therefore damage ranges), you're looking at a 73% increase in OH spree damage. However given that OH attacks are only 42% of Killing Spree's total damage, it's a 31% increase in damage total. Which is not much for an ability that does maybe 40 DPS right now, and you'd have to have an equivalent or better slow OH sword to make that work.

And to jdPowers: The whole OH/MH and poison stuff has been discussed ad nauseum for Mutilate, you should read the thread, specifically Aldriana's most recent post on the subject a few pages back.

Dontmindme · 09/27/08, 2:20 AM

Another question about Killing Spree...
Anyone notice whether haste effects reduce the time between the attacks and thus the overall duration?
If it's duration is shortened (with the same amount of damage), this would reduce the penalty for having white attacks and specials turned off. You'd then only be comparing unhasted damage lost to the damage done during the spree.

Unfortunately, my computer timing for logs has been known to do silly things (like run up to 20% fast at times and then jump back 5 minutes) so I cannot adequately test this.

Ikilu · 09/27/08, 5:04 AM

Originally Posted by jdpowers19

Has there been any discussion of whether to switch to a DP MH IP OH poison setup for a mutilate build? I did some quick testing on the target dummies in Org on PTR and found that while my envenom damage and deadly damage remained the same, I gained about 4-5% more damage from instant poison when swapping instant poison to off hand.

Edit: I suppose I should clarify my question. Has it been proven that putting IP on the faster of the 2 daggers will do more dps?

Yes it has. Please at least read the last few pages of the thread before posting. I know it may seem daunting with all the pages in this thread but I did it so I know it can be done.

Unless I only dreamed it in which case, get out of my dreams!

Edit* Should have refreshed this page before posting since I stepped away for a few hours. I could have saved myself some typing!

koaschten · 09/27/08, 7:15 AM

Thanks to Wodahs' post on the official forums we now at least know whats the problem with the rogue class...

Ghostcrawler ( WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Rogue Talent design intentions ):

Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy. Without a finite resource like mana, it's easy to analyze every possible move for its cost efficiency and ultimate damage delivery. This is coupled with the fact that it's really easy for a rogue to move among trees. By contrast, before the advent of Frostfire Bolt a fire mage could mostly ignore frost. A shadow priest wants almost nothing in Holy. But having an emphais on poisons or stealth in a rogue tree doesn't make a tree unattractive to a Combat rogue. I'm not trying to make excuses, but perhaps more than any other class, I find that rogues can evaluate a talent's utility pretty easily. It's a cool thing about the class, but it makes talent design challenging.

silotallaja · 09/27/08, 9:08 AM

Without a finite resource like mana, it's easy to analyze every possible move for its cost efficiency and ultimate damage delivery.

The deffinition is wrong. The resource of energy is finite, it depends on time. It doesnt deplete, but there are really limited ways to get it more than usual also (thistle tea, wich will be nerfed to 20 and asjusting some stats on your char). The size of manapool in the other hand is not constant and there are many ways to get it filled more or less in a fight. Thats what makes it hard to model, but one can't call it finite, thats the one thing what it isnt.

candlegarden · 09/27/08, 10:02 AM

Are there any items in WotLK that increase the energy regeneration rate? If there aren't would it be an interesting rogue (and cat) only stat? Since energy regeneration is smoother now it would be easier to implement as well I guess.

Zaniel · 09/27/08, 11:45 AM

I was reading some posts on the Beta forums today and some thoughts hit me based on this blue response: src

In terms of the big raid buffs, the ones we consider rogues bringing are Expose Armor, Wound Poison and Mind Numbing Poison. There are plenty of others more along the lines of Kick and Sap that are harder to quantify.

Now I know that using Mind Numbing is an incredible DPS loss over using IP/DP, but wasn't Wounding buffed up to the 50% proc chance base too? What is the damage loss from switching either DP or IP out for it (realizing, of course, that this is some group utility we provide).

Also, he mentioned Expose, which is very rarely used because of the abundance of warriors in today's raids. But in 10 mans this may change dramatically. Rogues may need to use EA a lot more, especially with the addition of another non-Sundering tank to the mix. In cases where tanks don't Sunder, it's always best for the rogue to use EA, correct? I seem to recall someone running those numbers a good, long while ago.

Lastly, I think many rogues are hesitant to use EA because the opportunity cost of it -- it's hard to refresh, and it takes a full 5 cp finisher's slot. My thoughts: why not allow it to be refreshed by Dismantle? Then we'd have another good reason to use that ability in PvE, even if the boss is immune to the original effect... and it wouldn't require us to drop (waste?) a full 5 cp on refreshing EA.

UberDrivel · 09/27/08, 1:23 PM

Shadowpanther's chart has been updated with currently known Wrath armor:
http://shadowpanther.net/armor-pve.htm

Looking it over, I like where they're going with the itemization. There are a number of viable options, in addition to Tier gear. I suppose there were just as many options in entry-level BC raiding, and perhaps the options will decrease in T8 and T9, but there's quite a selection. Also, I have to assume that the rings are ranked incorrectly: Angelista's Revenge and Band of Ruinous Delight are still on top, probably because of the discrepancy in ArPen and ArPen Rating - do we know the conversion values yet? Of course, the MAEP formula may change, especially if Mutilate surpasses Combat as the build of choice (which I assume would decrease the importance of hit after being yellow attack-capped).

On a personal note, glad some of those hard-earned purples will last for a while, at least for leveling.

EDIT: Yes, ArPen is definitely being unevenly weighed - Bladeangel's Money Belt is said to surpass Slayer's Belt, which can't be right.