Milano

Something seriously wrong with ArP in that list

Band of Ruinous Delight 255
Hard Khorium Band 90
Stormrage Signet Ring 89

 

Roywyn

ArPen is weighted as rating.

Money Belt has 77 Armor Penetration, which will be 11 ArPen rating in 3.0.
The sheet interprets it as 77 ArPen rating though, which is kind of huge.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

OengusSC

I'd like to see the math behind this hypothesis. My own number crunching suggested that Tricks would be worth using at pretty much any DPS level even on fairly low DPS performers. I did my math using a combat spec, having the new Vitality certainly helps put Tricks in a rotation. One thing I didn't account for however, was I was using Potency proc energy gains from a WWS of a Brutallus kill. Our energy gains from Combat Potency most likely won't be as great at level 80 considering in that WWS parse I used to estimate Potency energy returns I only had a 1% miss rate.

Assuming a 5 minute fight at around the 2500 DPS mark, the math I came up with only estimated the cost of using Tricks on cooldown to be around 21.5 DPS.

Also, assuming threat isn't an issue for any classes, I've been hypothesizing what class/spec would be the most "bang for the buck" to use Tricks on. Also assuming all class/spec options will be pushing very similar DPS if Blizzard has their way, it would most likely be what ever class/spec could push the most casts in that 6 second window. Time will obviously tell whether a coordinated effort will be possible on timing Tricks efficiently (hitting an Afflication lock after Haunt, but before DoTs for instance) or if it will be more trouble then it's worth.

 

• Aldriana

If there is no warrior in the raid, it is generally optimal to use EA, yes. On the other hand, if there *is* a warrior in the raid, it will almost always be better to have them sunder than to have a rogue EA, unlike the current situation; Sunders can be applied more quickly and sustained with a lower DPS loss than EA, so now that EA is a smaller DPS benefit than Sunders, there's no longer any reason to use it with a warrior around.

 

Lapp

Yeah, definitely a bug. SP sent me an e-mail about the Wrath update, as I had inquired about it earlier. There's this ArP bug, and he says he's also tweaking his AEP formulas soon, so it's not useful quite yet.

 

◊ chalon

The 3700 number was calculated by Aldrianna several pages back. Based on Vulajin's sheet though, I lose about 90 DPS by using Tricks on cooldown, which brings the number down to ~3000 in order to be worthwhile.

 

UberDrivel

I've also read that denying a Warrior the use of Sunder will greatly decrease his or her threat and get you yelled at!

Re: ArPen/Rating: So every 7 ArPen = 1 ArPen rating? That seems like a pretty cosmetic change - doesn't rating usually imply a percentage? I think it'd be more useful (and possibly balanced) if ArPen Rating was calculated as a particularly % of a boss' armor - that way, it wouldn't be great against clothies (Shade of Aran is such a +epeen fight, heh) and bad on heavily armored bosses. Anyhow, it shouldn't be too hard foir Shadowpanther to fix the charts then, just divide by seven.

 

• Aldriana

The 3700 number was based on a certain level of gear and buff - if your gear and buffs are lower, you lose less damage by spending 15 energy to cast TotT, so the damage requirement on the target player is lower as well. So if you're only doing 3000 DPS, the number for your target is going to be lower - say (and I'm just making up a number here), 2300 DPS. It is going to require some analysis on a case-by-case basis, but my intuition is that it's generally going to be worthwhile.

 

sp00n

I wanted to see how combat's state is currently and how a level 70 build with the new talents will feel like.
So I've had a fun day in Dire Maul today (bashing the undead ogre spirits in DM north).

First I went there with my life character to establish a base line DPS value. I did 4 sessions of about 11-12 minutes each. The idea was to use 3 times Adrenaline Rush and then end the fight. Therefore, the duration of each session was not exactly 10 minutes 15 seconds, as a 3 times usage of AR could imply, because I adapted the usage to my cycles of course.

Target:

Gordok Spirit	(Melee)
Level:	60 Elite
Type:	Undead
Kick dmg base:	110
Kick dmg naked:	81
DR%:	~26.4%
Armor:	~3780

No buffs were used besides Poisons. Note that as my second trinket (the first one being Dragonspine Trophy) I was using the [Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality]. It may have skewed the results a bit due to the higher crit rate involved.
My gear was [Warglaive of Azzinoth] main hand, [Blade of Savagery] off hand and Sunwell pieces for rest except for Helm (Cursed Vision), Cloak (ZA timed), Chest (T6), and Trinket (Ashtongue + Dragonspine).
You most likely can see my gear and talents in my Armory-Link, as I rarely do PvP these days.

---

This is the breakdown of these sessions:

The Burning Crusade:

Build used:	20/41/0
Cycle used:	5s5r

Overall		4126254	dmg
		2730	sec
		1511.4	DPS
Type	Count	Damage	%	DPS
Melee:	4974	2539184	61.54%	930.1
Sinister Strike:	920	1092645	26.48%	400.2
Rupture:	800	154075	03.73%	56.4
Deadly Poison VII:	892	211503	05.13%	77.5
Instant Poison VII:	588	107796	02.61%	39.5
Eviscerate:	10	17470	00.42%	6.4
Garotte:	18	3581	00.09%	1.3
Total		4126254	100.00%

I tried to incorporate the weird Recount stats from Melee (Sword Spec), Eviscerate (Sword Spec) or Instant Poison (Sword Spec) as much as I could into the "real" categories.
I really think this feature should be removed from Recount, it's straight up buggy.

The results are better than the DPS Spreadsheet calculated. It showed me 1435 DPS to expect.
I made a mistake in the sheet and selected a wrong trinket instead of Dragonspine Tropy. Changing it, the sheet shows me 1481 DPS, which is pretty close to the actual outcome. The difference could very well be due to me choosing a cycle that involves 3x Adrenaline Rush and stopping after the third has ended, reducing the DPS 'cost' for the third cooldown.

---

With this base line established, I was able to proceed to the PTR:

Wrath of the Lich King. PTR Build 8982:

Build used:	5/51/5
Cycle used:	5s5r(+5e)
Glyphs used:	Sinister Strike
	Slice and Dice
	Rupture

No Rupture Glyph was available on the PTR, at least I didn't find anybody who would sell me one.
I am using Deadly on the main hand here, opposed to what I was doing in the previous test.

Overall		4663866	dmg
		2712	sec
		1719.7	DPS
Type	Count	Damage	%	DPS
Melee:	4850	2553300	54.75%	941.5
Sinister Strike:	928	1043262	22.37%	384.7
Rupture:	688	148768	03.19%	54.9
Deadly Poison VII:	862	410578	08.80%	151.4
Instant Poison VII:	612	268906	05.77%	99.2
Eviscerate:	43	100699	02.16%	37.1
Killing Spree:	220	132066	02.83%	48.7
Garotte:	24	6287	00.13%	2.3
Total		4663866	100.00%

The DPS value is quite in line with the current Roguecraft Spreadsheet, shy of 30 DPS. I was presented with 1747 DPS to expect.

Note: I am not sure if Prey on the Weak was working at all while testing. The undead ogres have a health value of 1, do not take damage and therefore do not fall below 100% health. I assume PotW was not active at all!
If this is the case, the spreadsheet falls behind by 84 DPS. However, I'm not sure how well the Roguecraft Spreadsheet handles targets that are lower in level than yourself anyway. I had to manually hack in a target level of 60.

---

Head to head diagram:

Here's a mighty Excel diagramm showing the DPS values and percentual proportion of the various damage abilities.
I left Garrote out for obvious reasons.

---

Conclusion & additional notes:

In comparison to the current talent tree, we're seeing a buff in WotLK. Against a level 60 elite target, and no buffs besides poisons, it is in the range of 200 DPS, up from 1500 to 1700.

Poison damage more than doubled, from 117 DPS to 251 DPS. Sinister Strike decreased a bit, I think due to the glyph; fewer Sinister Strikes needed for a cycle and energy consumed by the second finisher. Eviscerate jumped from 6 to 37 DPS, a result from the SnD and SS glyph, where I was able to perfom 2 finisher cycles.
Killing Spree is showing me 49 DPS, which I think is very close to what Aldriana calculated it to be.

As a result, those 200 increased DPS mainly come from a) the increased poison damage (+134 DPS combined), and b) from Killing Spree and a second finisher - Eviscerate in this case (+79 DPS combined).

Most likely I would have been able to put out a bit more DPS on the PTR. I didn't get used very much to new energy flow mechanig (a godly change nonetheless), also I missed some of my addons, especially an energy bar. The one I found working wasn't still updating in real time, so I sometimes found myself capping energy out at 100.

What I found really quite entertaining was actually the Sinister Strike glyph in combination with the extra SnD time. 1 extra combo point on 40% of your SS crits doesn't seem very much, but it simply felt to happen much more frequently. Maybe this was due to the Ashtongue talisman, as noted above, and me beating on a low level target. However, when it procced, most times I was able to do a 2 finisher cycle, i.e. 5s5r5e (I did not use Envenom but Eviscerate). Sometimes I wouldn't be able to get back to 5 combo points after the Eviscerate, but 4 was always possible and it offered plenty of time to do a normal 4s5r cycle and end up with 5 cp to start a fresh cycle.
You can see the difference in the amount of Eviscerates performed between the current cycles and the cycles used on the PTR.

In combination with the Ashtongue talisman, it felt much like Mutilate and the Find Weakness buff, where you're trying to squeeze in as much as possible before the buff fades. Quite fun actually, shame it's gone for Mutilate now.

In terms of Killing Spree, I'm not very excited about this talent. It feels displaced where it is, it really feels much more like a Subtley talent. One very annoying thing I noticed is, not only do you stop auto-attacking while performing Killing Spree, you also completely stop auto attacking after it has finished! Meaning, as soon as it ends, you have to press a key to activate auto attacking again.
What I ended up doing was that I simply continued smashing my SS button while performing Killing Spree. Due to this, I also stopped using it when I was already at 5 combo points. This one SS will come through after it has ended.


I did not yet test out a Shiv build. And honestly I don't want to, since I believe it will be changed anyways.

 

Waldar

Nice test sp00n.

One thing i wonder is you have about the same damage output on your white attacks, but with +1000 more attacks on the PTR (+27%). Do you have any idea about this ?

 

Maurice2u

The recent addition of Dev (Blue) feedback has been refreshing, but certainly some of the specifics of those comments have been disturbing.

"In terms of the big raid buffs, the ones we consider rogues bringing are Expose Armor, Wound Poison and Mind Numbing Poison. There are plenty of others more along the lines of Kick and Sap that are harder to quantify. "

That statement stands out as particularly troubling. If you stack ALL of those items together, and toss them into a calculation of percentage used in raids, the total sum would be less than a myriad of single abilities. Vanish alone is used in total more times than all of those combined by sheer design mechanincs. Most things simply do not require the things listed, or the mobs involved are immune, or the effect is better implemented by another class.

The disturbing part is that a Dev thought that was an appropriate list for "big raid buffs". Not even HEMO, arguably our only potential true raid buff contributor prior to Wrath (yes, I know, lol) made the list. I truly hope some of our members here who have beta board access take the time to constructively respond to that post. The implications of design decisions based upon the thinking behind that statement are something we should certainly try to head off if possible. (IMO, of course)

 

sp00n

Yes, I forgot to include a cell in my excel sheet. Fixed now.

 

songster

Hemo is not a true raid buff. If you don't understand why that is the case, this is probably the wrong thread for you.

The "big raid buff" comment refers to the new unified set of buffs as listed here. She is indeed correct that the ones we cover (untalented) are:

1) Armor Debuff (Major) - Expose Armor (if Improved)
2) Healing Debuff - Wound Poison
3) Cast Speed Slow - Mind Numbing Poison

In addition, through talents we can apply the following:

4) Physical Vulnerability Debuff - Combat, Savage Combat
5) Critical Strike Chance Taken Debuff - Assassination, Master Poisoner


Now, there are certainly quibbles to be raised. For example, it is far harder for a rogue to keep up the armor debuff than for a warrior to do so. It is a very significant DPS loss to use Mind Numbing poison, while a warlock I believe sacrifices less DPS in order to do so. The subtlety tree has no raid buff. However, simply blindly positing a whine while demonstrating complete ignorance of the new raid buff system won't help anyone achieve anything.

 

Ashere

It's not a buff but a debuff, that much is true. Nonetheless, it has the word raiding written all over, whether you like it or not. It has potential to be much better, but that potential just hasn't been implemented.

As for our other "true" raid buffs: the top 3 are also debuffs, and thus don't qualify for that list for the exact same reason that hemo doesn't qualify.

 

swelt

I agree, dwelling on that remark isn't helpful. Indeed, if members of this forum should be going to respond specifically to a blue post, I would think it should be this one:

I would suggest that the recent discussion about the rise of fast daggers in mutilate builds, resulting from the increased strength of poisons and the implementation of focussed attacks, would be a very valid input to that discussion.

 

• Maestroquark

Hemo is not a typical "raid buff/debuff" because it's a strict amount of damage added. Whether you're all in blues or Tier 27 epics, Hemo will add the same amount of damage. The only thing it scales with is crit rate. Due to charges, Hemo will never act as other buffs/debuffs act.

What are you waiting for, a certain shade of green?

 

songster

"Hemorrhage: An instant strike that deals 110% weapon damage and causes the target to hemorrhage, increasing any Physical damage dealt to the target by up to 42. Lasts 10 charges or 15 sec. Awards 1 combo point."

In a raid situation, whether 10- or 25-man, every Hemo charge is used every time. That means that the description of Hemorrhage effectively reduces to:

"Hemorrhage: An instant strike that deals 110% weapon damage plus 420. Awards 1 combo point."

Now, compare that to "Sinister Strike: An instant strike that causes 98 damage in addition to your normal weapon damage. Awards 1 combo point."

The Hemo bonus is effectively a static bonus per strike, exactly the same as Sinister Strike. The debuff does not scale with your gear, with the number of people in the group, with the individual DPS of other group members or with their gear level. This is what makes it different from all the other raid debuffs, and mean that it is in no way a true raid synergy.

 

UberDrivel

That's a really good point about Hemo. But I would like to note that if you can keep Hemo up an entire boss fight, there may be a point where its damage : energy ratio surpasses Sinister Strike (particularly with the Glyph). The question is whether speccing that deep into Subtlety is worthwhile for raiding, and the answer is probably not, at least as far as the current tree stands.

I think if they wanted to make every tree have a pseudo raid buff, they would change Hemo to more of an Expose Weakness-type effect, which would probably mean a raid took a "token" Hemo Rogue, much like raids currently take a single Survival Hunter (or so I've read).

But I think people who are concerned that Rogues don't bring enough raid utility fail to recognize how much Rogues receive from other classes' buffs. Synergy works both ways: you need enabler, buffing classes, but you also need classes who can take advantage from those buffs. And just looking at the sheer number of buffs that will be available in Wrath, from Swift Retribution to the separation of Salv/Might or Kings and universal Windfury/Strength of Earth, I think Rogues will be fine. I can't wait to raid in Wrath!

 

Ashere

It is capped at 420 + crits, that much is true, but without a raid you won't fully utilize the ability either. In the avaragely composed 10-men raid, the 10 charges are just depleted by the time you reapply the debuff. I've never seen all charges used in a 5-men instance group. With the energy cost of hemo going down in WotLK, overwriting will definitely happen a lot more in 10-men raids (probably between the 8th and 9th charge), unless you're rather heavy on physical damage classes. For bigger raids the cheaper hemorrhage is good though, since it will be reapplied much more often, but still get fully used.

In a caster-heavy 10-men raid, you'll already never use all charges. Hemo has a very good raiding potential, it's just the complete lack of scaling, both from gear and raid size beyond 10-men on the debuff (save for crits) which makes the debuff rather weak. Either scaling on gear or making the debuff timed instead of charged would be really simple means to improve it's uses. But, these are not the suggestion forums, but I do hope I make clearer how hemo can be considered a raid debuff, even if it's not an optimal one.

 

Maurice2u

The intent was not to say how "good" Hemo was. I pointed it out as a utility item for no other reason than it applies an effect that other members of your group recieve benefit from. That does not take a whole lot to realize.

The point I was making is the mindset that the post reflected. The listing of several things that none of us would consider as "big raid buffs". Essentially, I am saying that if we represent the upper tier of the raiding community, and we would not list those things as "big raid buffs", but those making decisions about how we will be utilized in the future do think that way, there is a disconnect.

Since I do not have beta board access, I was only pointing out that the disconnect should be addressed by those who do if we are to have the final state of the class come more in line with our expectations. I'm not quite sure how that translated into "blindly posting a whine" Songster, but to be specific about your post. I said "pre Wrath", and HEMO by your own definition meets item #4 on your list.

Again, I'm not looking to point out Subtlety is worthwhile or not worthwhile. A simple increase in charges or damage per charge changes "effectiveness" of HEMO. So that is easy to fix. What I'm talking about is a developer thinking SAP is a 'big raid buff'. How often do you SAP in a raid? How many bosses are even susceptible to Mind-Numbing poison?

Raid buffs, when they come to mind are typically things like Blessing of Kings, Prayer of Fortitude, a totem, etc. And if speaking in generics, you speak of debuffs under the same name (buffs), and so many of those get mentioned in as well. The list tossed up by the blue, as others have noted, simply does not reflect what we would call big raid buffs because they have no consistent application in raids. At the VERY best, they are rare gimmick use. More likely for trash than anything, if used at all, and the effect almost always more easily, effectively, and consistently applied by someone else. That goes from CC (SAP vs. Sheep), to armor debuff (Expose vs. Sunder since it blocks warriors), and everything in between. This is talking about 25mans .... 'Big Raid Buffs'. Not solo, not 5man, not even 10, and so yes ... the core of that original post concerns me quite a bit, not on numbers, but in what it says about how we are perceived by the only ones who have the power to change how the class functions.

Obviously we have new debuffs and team boosts in wrath, but none of those were noted in the post either. It is quite possible that the new tools are just what we need to fill that role, but they were not mentioned there. Specifically, our new 'misdirect', savage combat, and master poisoner.

 

Inkm

The mechanics of hemo has been, very much so, discussed in this thread:

[Rogue]The Combat vs Hemo Point of Inflection

 

teiglin

First, you can't keep hemo up for an entire boss fight. I find the charges almost always get used up with just 2 other physical dps in my group/raid, which is nearly always the case in 10man and more or less certain in 25man. A corollary of this is that the hemo glyph is basically worthless for raiding hemo, since you are unlikely to have hemo up when you next cast it. In 2.3 (or maybe 2.4? one of those included the hemo change), it had superior DPE than SS at low gear levels, but SS scaling rapidly made it the superior choice for endgame raiding. I actually raided as sword spec hemo for a couple months last year and did solid damage with it in SSC/TK (yay talon of azshara), but as it stands now, the scaling is vastly inferior to SS. And as you mention, the general value of a subtlety spec is much lower than other specs that don't waste the points to spec down to hemo.

I don't think they want it to be a real raid buff, as they've moved away from having generally unique raid buffs. I suppose they could change it to duplicate some other existing raid buff, but adding a new category of buffs is silly.

During TBC, rogues had the status of unparallelled buff hogs, needing numerous other classes in the proper group setup to do top dps. However, with class homogenization and the move away from the idea of "pure dps" vs. "utility" classes, rogues need to bring something to the table besides being buff leeches. Warriors, DKs, feral druids, and hunters can all use most of the same buffs rogues can, so if rogues aren't at least as good as them in terms of both dps (which is supposed to be similar across all dps classes) and utility, then they won't be brought to raids at all.

 

UberDrivel

As I said, I don't think speccing into Hemo is worthwhile for raiding. (I'm 20/41/0 right now, of course.) No disagreement there. It's probably greedy to want three viable trees for raids; having a viable Mutilate and Combat tree would be very interesting, and I think that's where we're headed. I'm sure Hemo will get plenty of love in Arenas.

Yeah, I don't think Hemo's going to be changed either. Just speculating!

Well, Tricks of the Trade is a clear move towards utility, although it feels awfully forced. I'm confident that we'll be up there in dps. As far as class homogenization, it's true that Blizz seems to be looking to even out dps numbers, but I thought this quote on Ret Paladins kinda sums it up:

(via MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Not possible to leave Ret paladin feedback)

It's just a matter of being an awesome Rogue instead of an okay one, heh. If you do an optimal cycle, use your cooldowns and don't die, I'm sure you'll get a raid spot.

On a tangential note, MMO-Champion has posted heroic dungeon loot: WotLK - Heroic Dungeon Loot List

Interesting how some iLvl 200 purples in there seem slightly better than certain Naxx loot, e.g. the Advanced-Tooled Leather Bands (clunky name aside). Should make gearing up for Naxx easier.

 

Raconzor

This is a little departure from most of what is discussed in this thread, it might not even be the right thread for it, but ...

I'm a little bothered by the amount of stamina I've generally seen on PvE gear. Specifically, I feel like it's a little more than what makes sense. A survey of my current T5/badge gear reveals that while I have 3 or 4 items that have more base stamina than agility, they are generally quite close, within 3 points at the outside I believe. I know there will be scaling, and I know that stamina is a cheaper-per-item-point stat, however: most items I have seen linked were something like +10 agi and +20 or more stamina. Why? Is the aoe nature of early raiding content so heavy that we need a (relative to average hp of the raid) much larger hp pool? Is pve gear the new bad, no resilience pvp gear? Does anyone else think that our gear shouldn't have much more stamina than agility, if at all?

I know Blizz is trying to homogenize gear ... that's fine ... but ultimately, the gear that, say, a feral druid is going to tank with just can't be the same gear that a rogue DPSs with ... that's a travesty.

Thoughts?

Edit: Some numbers - 13/18 leather items from heroics on MMO Champion front page have at least 5 more stamina than agility ... 10/18 have 10 or more, with a number of these being really dramatic, like 30+. So ... I guess this isn't as bad as I thought. Still wish it was better though ... (and I couldn't find a list of Naxx 10/25 gear)

 

Akka

I draw the exact opposite conclusions than you. And I also support the worries of Maurice2 about the disconnect between what the designers seem to think and what the actual situation may be.

One thing that you have to remember, is that, as blues have repeatedly said, all DPS spec are supposed to have roughly the same efficiency in WotLK. That is, an enhancement chaman is supposed to do very nearly the same DPS as a PvE rogue in a raid environment.
There is already several outcries about this game philosophy on the official forums, about "how is it fair that an hybrid class can be as good as a pure class at this pure class' job ?", so I won't dwell into this. Instead, I'd like to point two elements that seems to have been severely under-evalued.

- First, the supposed "big raid buffs" that rogues are supposed to bring in raid (namely, wound poison, mind-numbing poison and expose armor).
Several classes can bring the same raid buff/debuff, as to not make one too important. But there is a problem in this case : when a rogue uses these raids buffs, he does so AT THE COST of a good part of his DPS. Either because he's using his CP to expose armor rather than rupture/S'n'D/envenom, either because he's using wound/mind-numbing poison instead of instant/deadly.
It this regard, a rogue has to chose between his personal efficiency, and raid efficiency, which is not the case - or at least not as much the case - for the other classes (it's far easier/less taxing for a warrior to keep Sunder Armor than a rogue to keep Expose Armor, for example, and keeping Mortal Strike is even part of the Arms Warrior rotation, costing him nothing).
I'm not sure that this cost have been properly calculated/included in the buffs/debuffs distribution.
Notice that some tweaking could easily make it works out in the end (for example, letting a less-than-5cp EA refreshes a previously 5cp EA duration, and/or allowing stacking, e.g. 3cp EA + a 2cp EA some time later stack to a 5cp EA ; or anything which make keeping these debuffs less costly for the rogue, there is lots of possibilities).

- Second, the possible very worrying consequences of all DPS spec being at the same level in raid.
As Uberdrivel said, you have buff-providers, but for them to be useful, you need buff-users. In BC, the rogue didn't produce any really useful raid buff, but in exchange he was the best buff-users, and was useful by using the most all buffs given.
But if all classes are to be roughly equal in DPS in WotLK, it means that they all have to benefit roughly the same from the same buffs. And the problem is then : outside of raids, when soloing or 5-manning, the rogue won't have all these raid-buffs. While the buff-provider will still have his own.
As such, if full-buffed both have the same DPS, it means that in 5-men, the rogue will have a lower DPS AND a lower utility than the hybrid (because the rogue will have only his personnal, unbuffed DPS, while the hybrid will have a personnal DPS equivalent to the rogue, and his own raid/group buffs on top of that).
Again, not a whine, only a great worry about something that could have been overlooked by the designers.

Let's hope they are aware of these potential problems and working on it, but if they aren't (or if they are aware, but underestimate them), it may be important to let them know.
Some hard data from people on the beta realms about personal DPS with self-buffs on rogues and other hybrid classes would be very welcome to see if this could pose a real problem at the add-on.

If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !