kargathia

You are afraid that our utility in relation to our dps will drop in 5-man instances, but 5 man instances are suited for a few more rogue skills to become "utility" as opposed to "completely useless": stuns, evasion tanking mobs, comparatively high dodge chance to name a few. Right now I am already able to solo tank most heroic trash with the exception of unstunnable mobs, and ones which have some nasty uncounterable skill, or plain oneshot me if they hit me - trash which looks more like raid trash than heroic trash.

In short: while hybrids bring more buffs in relation to personal dps rogues bring the ability to improvise, which is much more valuable in heroics than it will ever be in raids

"...vincer potero dentro a me l'ardore
ch'i' ebbi a divenir del mondo esperto
e de li vizi umani e del valore"

 

Cirocco

People bring the ability to improvise, which can be done with all classes by people who know what their class is capable of. What a rogue brings at the moment is the ability to kill mobs faster than hybrid classes who provide much more utility to the party, this is why I bring my rogue to instances and this is why I bring my rogue to raids.

The grand vision of every class being able to do similar dps that Blizzard now seems to have is just leaving me stunned. When I play my druid I don't expect to be doing anything like the dps I do on my rogue, I provide buffs on my druid, I provide innervate and an in combat res, I'm there to offtank and when not offtanking I can provide reasonable dps, and funnily enough I don't actualy care where I am on the dps metres so long as it's reasonable.

The bottom line here is that Rogues do not provide nearly enough utility, especialy in a raid situation for it to be justifiable to bring them along if they don't provide significantly more damage than classes that provide that utility. The glaringly obvious reason is that Blizzard are scared of giving rogues to much damage in pvp. The glaringly obvious solution is to have different rules for damage output in pve and pvp.

 

◊ chalon

Honestly, what I'm kind of concerned about after running 25-man Naxx last night is the fact that all classes' DPS is intended to be balanced such that they do single-target damage that's roughly equal. However, with the vast majority of fights where there's a lot of adds, the fact that say a DK can do excellent single target DPS in addition to some crazy AE damage (courtesy of Wandering Plague) starts to make those classes really outshine us. On fights where there's only 1 boss to fight we do very well still, but the fact that most fights aren't necessarily that way makes us a little lackluster to bring.

If you guys want to see the full parses from last night, here you go: ER WotLK Beta Raid History

I ran a 25 man first, then a 25 man Sartharion, then a 10 man Naxx. As you can see, on 25 man I never topped DMs, and I believe the highest I got was 2nd or 3rd. At least I made up for it a bit in 10 man by beating that very good DK on the two fights where Murder is taken into account.

It also seems like that at this point, other classes scale better from 10->25 man than we do. Looking at the 25 man and the 10 man Patchwerk, I did 16% more damage in 25 man while the DK did 18% more damage. To be fair I did not have Blood Frenzy in either run, and only 16% WF instead of 20%, but I did have pretty much every other buff in the 25-man.

EDIT: Also trying to figure out how I did 500 more DPS on Faerlina in 10 man than in 25, other than some lucky crit streaks.

 

Solange

are any of the experts here aware of and perhaps tested the seeming bug with Deadly Deeds and poisons affecting Mutilate damage? Described in this thread:

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Mutilate damage...

certainly it seems that will have a huge effect on both pve and pvp involving mutilate once it's fixed.

 

◊ chalon

I fail to see how it will have a "huge effect" on PvE since none of our theoretical builds spec that way to include what is clearly a bug.

 

Waywilder

I'm not familiar of the fight, but if the Naxxramas Follower and Worshipper are some adds in the fight or mobs before her, killing them and running to Faerlina would explain the lower dps. That's my guess at least, considering it shows your damage dealt to Faerlina at around 3700 dps on both fights.

Since I was interested in some feral druid vs rogue comparison I went through the Chalon's parses of 25-men Naxx, and compared his performance on boss fights to a druid named Brand. On 10 fights where they both were in the raid, Brand came out above Chalon 9 times out of 10. Seems like we really need to start actually earning that leather instead of getting it handed to us on a silver plate.

Edit: also seems like there wasn't much scaling for you on the Faerlina fight, when compared for example to Sugargiggles whose dps went up from 3200 to 4500 when stepping up from 10-men to 25-men. Instead of being awesome buff sponges in TBC we seem to scale a whole lot less in current beta.

 

◊ chalon

Good point about Faerlina, but it's still kind of surprising that fully raid buffed with a flask vs. neither I did 3.7k DPS on her either way. But I'm trying to remember what happened on the 25 man one and very well may have messed up.

As for the comparison vs. Feral, yeah, Feral druids seem to be extremely competitive with rogues at this point. I'd say that particular one was slightly better geared than I was, but yeah, he beat me on nearly every fight in 25 man. Patchwerk was the only one I was able to pull ahead on. He also came in later on our 10 man and it was about 50-50 whether or not one of us won.

 

UberDrivel

Also, Sap is getting another rank. Generally the big reason to take certain dps classes for heroic instances is the ability to CC - so really, it's the Fury Warriors and Ret Paladins who need a bit of help there. I haven't had too much trouble getting into heroic groups in Outland, and I don't think it will be much of a problem in Northrend. Raid buffs are nice, but Rogues are pretty self sufficient, as kargathia said.

Seriously, being afraid that the entire class is going to lose a raid spot is ludicrous. In fact, I'd say that we will have *more* utility in Wrath than BC, with the implementation of Tricks of the Trade and the option of either Master Poisoner or Savage Combat. It's just a couple % in crit or damage, but that's probably comparable to the bonuses from, say, a Hunter's Mark or an SPriest's Misery debuff.

And yes, I kind of wince when I see the amount of +stam on certain items. It'll be nice for solo leveling, but it is a waste after a certain health. What do you guys think the minimum health will be for raiding? 12k? 15k?

 

Solange

i think a lot of this rose-colored glasses stuff may be coming from rogues that havent had to apply cold to guilds in a while, and raid with friends where their spot is assured.

right now, rogues have the highest dps in 25man raids by a ridiculous margin. And yet no one is recruiting them, and T6-level epic rogues are a dime-a-dozen and no one gives a hoot. They'll take T6 enh shaman in a flash though (utility), and obviously everyone is on their knees begging for any type of priest/druid/shaman healer. OK - it's tougher for dps classes, we're used to that.

NOTE: On live, these "dps classes" DO NOT include moonkin or feral, ret pally, shadow priest - their dps is laughable, literally 1/2 that of rogue. shaman slightly better though not much. or any spec of DK. Note again that even mages/locks/fury warrior are noticeably below rogues in dps. AND STILL NO ONE'S LOOKING FOR A ROGUE FOR THEIR RAIDING GUILD.

Now, add all the above specs, countless numbers of them, into the dps population pool for the VERY first time, all doing rogue single-target dps by design, and all having crazy utility (plus aoe damage)... and tell me that rogues with their Expose Armor, Sap, and tricks of the trade "raid utility" aren't proper F'd.

 

• Aldriana

Speaking as someone who very recently was trying to recruit some T6-geared rogues, I can assure you that they're hardly a dime a dozen. Looking through the official WoW recruitment forum, there's basically always more Sunwell guilds looking for T6 rogues than there are T6 rogues available. So I think the idea that rogues are top DPS but still unwanted is pretty much a myth.

And even if that were the case, as has been previously discussed in this thread, even if other classes gain totally equal DPS to us, I still don't think our 25-man raid spots are at all in jeopardy - read back through the thread for the reasoning behind this. The only place I think we're at all in jeopardy is 5-10 man content, and even there I haven't seen any real cause for concern yet. I think we'll be fine.

 

CoroHD

For those looking at comparing various pieces of gear, if you can come up with some reasonable EP weights for Wrath stats, you can use this weight filter from WowHead to sort through gear.

Don't use the current numbers though, as they will be very inaccurate compared to wrath (they are based off of my own current live EP values). Also, keep in mind that it doesn't factor in set bonus's, on proc bonus's, and it doesn't properly weight meta's. Other than those few limitations it works a charm.

 

Roywyn

Nobody uses any kind of CC in Wrath. I tried sheeping a few things a handful of times and got whispers that I should skip that and just do damage.
Something that is useful is CCing a loose add. Gouge/Blind style, just to get it off the healer until the tank can pick it up again.
Ret paladins who know how to toss a well-timed Repentence and also know how to BoP are pretty suited for that role.
But the times of old shattered halls and shadow labyrinth or magister's terrace where you wanted tank/healer and 3 mages are definately over.

As a mage in mostly blues and sme epic, I'm at 20k HP raid buffed now with PWF/GotW/BoK and Blood Pact.
I have seen half the ten-mans out there, and 20k seems like a decent baseline now.
I could well image that this goes up to 25k or more for the future Naj'entus/Council HP checks.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Cooljo

Concerning increased stamina on gear:

As a (former) healing priest this "change" sounds really logical. Since crushings are removed from raiding and incoming tank damage is much less spiky than in live. Increased max health smooths incoming damage even more and lessens the need to always top up tanks. (see Holy/Disc Thread) Coupled with the downranking nerf this shift in raid healing could mean that perhaps less healers are neccesary or (what I think is the intention) to give the healers a less stressful life.
Seeing DD instagib in your raidframes is really frustrating as a healer. So this change could mean that a proper tank/dd/healer balance with a proper healing assignment is more than halfway of defeating a boss (or the whole raid instance) and is less dependant on RNG and such.

I don't think that more stamina on rogue gear is bad and I also don't think that it really "costs" us (the rogues) dps relative to the other classes since Blizz' stat value distribution philosophy applies to all classes.

 

Akka

It's partially true - rogue do bring a lot of "improvisation potential" in 5-men, and a good rogue is a true asset in such a case.
But that's a case of player skill far more than "class skill". I have some more tools to improvise as a rogue, but I'm able to improvise a lot with a paly or a warrior too. And while the rogue bring himself and his own improvisation, a buff-provider class bring himself, a tiny less of improvisation, but also higher personal DPS through his buffs, and of course his buffs on others too.

So, okay, a good rogue is better than a bad, say, ret paly, through his ability to improvise.
But is a good rogue better than a good ret paly, who can improvise nearly as much, and bring on top of that several very powerful buffs ? I certainly don't think so, and honestly I don't see how the opposite can be argued.
I'm sorry, but that is wishful thinking.
First, no, rogues aren't "pretty self-sufficient". Of course they can get the job done even without buff, but as the "buffer sponge", they are glaringly less-than-optimal in a buffless setting - the same mechanism making me worried for WotLK, though less severe right now because we're supposed to offer more DPS than hybrid.

Second, what's ludicrous is that you seem to only validate worries if they mean that the class will disappear from raiding. I consider that imbalance itself is reason enough to point at a problem, even though my own place in raid is secure beyond any doubt : I'm an officer, raid leader and one of the most reliable player in my guild, nobody's gonna take my place whatever the class balance is. But that's not the point. The point is, if there is an imbalance, it's bad for the game as a whole.
And right now, with the expansion's design idea of rogues being, even though they are "buff-sponge", at the same DPS than other classes in a raid setting, they will logically deal less DPS in buffless settings, and will have dubious raid utility. I'm not really concerned about rogues not being taken for raid anymore - I don't think it will be the case, if only because of social reason. But I'm not being thrilled with the concept of playing a class that bring nothing special in a raid, and is subpar outside of raids (talking about PvE here, not PvP).

And again, that's not a ludicrous whine - I'm not saying Blizzard hate us rogues, nor that "we're doomed" or anything. I'm only drawing logical (if perhaps wrong) conclusions from the design ideas the blues are building this expansion upon, and concluding there seem to be a problem. I may have missed something, of course, but for now the worries seem, to me, pretty compelling.

If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !

 

Sneakiest

In concerns to the current class status, I feel more or less the same as Akka. It isn't so much the lack of raid spots that bothers me - I share a similar situation as him/her when it comes to my guild - it's the actual feeling of playing a sub-par class. I'm not thinking of a grim scenario, but I'd want to avoid feeling like I was being taken for social reasons like the plague. I'm a devouted player to my guild and while I'm not the most hardcore guy out there, I do pull my weight in raids and like to feel useful and wanted in raids.

Right now Blizzard's new philosophy of completely avoiding raid stacking is welcomed whole-heartedly as far as I'm concerned, having been in an officer position before I know how annoying it could be to arrange for a 'proper' balance, countless Brutallus-day raids held off for later times because we simply didn't have the balance. I'm all for trying to homogenize buffs a bit in order for us to have a million possible setups rather than having to take X shamen, etc.

I'd say the balance issues don't rest only in class buffs to be honest, nor only in utility, there's also the issue that there's simply a few fights out there which favour ranged DPS over melee like Twins simply because the melee had the conditions flat-out against them. As a result, most guilds that far don't take more than two rogues per raid -- more than melee group simply isn't viable. EDIT: And there's probably not enough melee classes to justify more than that, I guess. Oversight on my behalf.

Okay, fair enough. Blizzard have made a point they're trying to change things, but I'd say our utility is still questionable. With hybrids being pumped upwards in the DPS, their utility goes through the room with the multitude of tasks they can handle upon respeccing, assuming they get gear for all specs. In the meantime, throughout BC they've thrown a few bones at rogues in an attempt to make us useful (there's a ton of fights requiring interrupts, sappable mobs in raid instances) but most of the time it just felt badly executed. I mean, TBC made us go combat for us to fully push our weight -- combat obviously means no MoD, which in turn, makes Sap, with it's already limited one-time, no combat functionality, a huge liability over a mage as someone has already pointed out. It's timed, cannot be reapplied and you'd better hope to god they ask you to sap the closest target to the raid and pray distract doesn't get resisted, because otherwise you gotta burn your vanish just to get enough +stealth to walk around comfortably.

Getting things like MoD is out of the question as far as I'm concerned.

Back at the topic at hand - our utility. I skimmed through the WOTLK beta thread in which Chalon posted and I think GC didn't reply at all to the part where it's mentioned that most of our utility tools mean in one way or another a significant DPS nerf - assuming devastate will still be common practise, a tank is more beneficial for the raid simply because they can keep sunders up while allowing any rogues to keep their proper rotations with eviscerates/envenoms/ruptures going.

As mutilate it probably wouldn't be as hard, but far from optimal. It's a flat-out nerf to a class with already limited utility. This is really what I hold against their whole 'Rogue Utility' concept. I'm guessing it already is a stretch to outdo hybrids in the current state of things, we seem to have worse raid scaling than most classes and our utility, even while they DID try to make it on the same level as other classes, in one way or another it implies less performance on our behalf as rogues.

Changes I'd like to see though would be changes to Killing Spree (at least keep autoattack running, allow CP procs and return to the first mob at the end), probably changes to Sinister Strike's damage as even with aggression now at 10% extra damage along with surprise attacks, it's pretty weak for a yellow attack, I'd like to see more of our damage come from abilities rather than white damage. Shiv certainly needs to be changed, the very basic testing I did on the PTR gave me the feeling it was just overall better than spamming sinister, I didn't even bother to change anything from the 5/51/5 spec I used and it was still seemed overall better - I didn't exactly do it in a controlled environment as I used the 60 test dummies in Orgrimmar for comparision's sake though I did try to avoid any debuffed targets.

So overall I think they need to look at yellow damage and make that more significant - at the same time I can understand they wouldn't want to as our PvP damage is probably fine as it is. Shiv needs fixing, combat still needs some boosting - hell, maybe even mutilate as well - our scaling needs to be looked at and our utility tools need to more or less change in order for us to remain competitive whilst being useful.

 

sp00n

In terms of raid utility through poisons, I'm thinking of an ability similar to the old Deadly Brew.
Maybe letting you put a second poison on your weapon, maybe off hand only. Not the same as already applied to it (or in the main hand), so definitely an utility poison (with wound poison being a possible problem).

As stated before, raid utility through poisons is an option, although associated with too much sacrifice; in WoltLK more than ever due to the increased poison damage.

Letting you put up a third poison would remove the DPS sacrifice and enable rogues to easily provide a raid utility debuff.


However, as always, there are implications with PvP. This seems to be the underlying theme for each rogue changes anyways. We can't buff this or that, it would be unbalanced for PvP.
For once they'd have to implement it in such a way that it has no effect on players, be it poisons, another ability or whatever.

 

Salamir

This statement is the crux of the situation. I, like many of you, am very secure in my raid spot. I will be raiding in WotLK, because my guild knows me.

The question posted on many forums, in regards to WotLK raiding (not current live), "Why bring a rogue to a raid?" is not the one that should be asked. The proper question is: "Why recruit a rogue?"

There's just little compelling reason to recruit an unknown person who plays a rogue into an end-game raiding guild. As natural attrition occurs, I believe we'll see a decline in the number of rogues represented in raiding guilds. And we're already starting from a weak position - seldom having more than 2/25 today.

 

rhea

2/25 is 20/10 per class. To who those extra 5 positions go to? Mostly hybrids (gear vs spec). Two spots is exactly what each class should at least have. That said let's look at what we should have / need to get those raid spots.

1. The buff user. If this would be the case, we should top meters easily in a perfect setup. Rogues are unique in this situation.
2. A pure role in dps. Top meters without the perfect setup?

3. A mix utility and dps. Most classes fit here. More below.
Rogues lose dps when bringing utility, other classes don't. Namely poisons, a clear flaw. "Easy to fix", just add a "curse of recklessness"-type component (or something) on deadly poison. Not a new poison but an addition to our best dps-poison. To add some variety, you could add COE on anesthetic and COR on deadly and VT on instant, just throwing ideas here.
Or then again, something to buff other classes.

 

Rupp

Preliminary PTR Testing

Forgive the poor data gathering but since I haven't been able to get a WWS parser working with patch 3.0, I am left to recount's ability to break down the data.

For testing, I had to just use the weapons I had. For sword testing this was Blade of Infamy/S2 Gladiator Quickblade. For Daggers this was Malchazeen/Emerald Ripper. I had a faster Retainer's Blade but the dps was significantly below that of the Ripper so I stayed with dual 1.8 spd wpns thinking that Retainer's might further reduce my dps. I'll need to go back and rerun tests with the faster blade to make sure. Tests were doing using my normal raid gear which is gemmed for hit or hit/agi. No outside buffs were used, not even food. Tests were done on level 70 training dummies (I had problems with data testing on the boss dummies but will get back to testing those later). Couldn't control the debuffs on the dummies but generally they had the same number and type of debuffs (still this lack of control on the testing will skew results).

Test Summary: (for HTB tests, stacked up 3 HTB's before starting fight at 100% energy)
Mutilate 51/5/5
Rotation: HTB/Rupture/Envenom (for all mutilates, did a 1 pt SnD on opening then ensured it stayed up with CttC)
DPS: 1266.1

Mutilate 51/5/5
Rotation: HTB/Envenom
DPS: 1205.6

Mutilate 51/5/5
Rotation: Rupture/Envenom (No HTB)
DPS: 1245

Mutilate 51/5/5
Rotation: Envenom Spam
DpS: 1196

Hemo Swords 5/5/51
Rotation: SnD/Rupture/Envenom
DPS: 1164 dps

Subtlety Daggers 8/2/51
Rotation: SnD/Rupture/Envenom
DPS: 1108.2 dps

Combat Swords 5/51/5
Rotation: SnD/Rupture....sometimes Envenom if time on SnD/Rupture was good
DPS: 1084.7 dps

Combat Daggers 8/51/2
Rotation: SND/Rupture
DPS: 958.2

Notes:
Focused Attacks is only giving 2 energy as others reported when it procs. Unknown if this is their current plan and the Tooltip is just wrong or if this is just a bug and should be 3 energy.

HTB is extremely weak for a 51 pt talent. The duration is ok, but the energy cost is too high. When I didn't use it, my dps wasn't much lower. Sometimes due to the way timers and CPs would play out, I'd have to use a <4 pt finisher just to refresh SnD.

Ruthlessness probably isn't ideal for Mutilate due to CP generation overlap. Often times it felt as if it was just messing up rotations.

Poisons: Poison crit rate was below expected even though I wasn't gemmed for crit (had my + hit gems still). Melee crit rate was around 30% but poison crit rate was 3.6-5% This leads me to believe that Malice isn't affecting poison crit rates. Painfully obvious that AGI has no bearing on poison crit rates also.

Killing Spree: When this ends, it terminates your auto attacking. have to watch this but sometimes you'll have a sec-two delay getting auto attacks to start again. Killing Spree accounted for only 33-41 of my dps (~3.5%). Very weak for a 51 pt talent. I imagine this will be even worse if your targets are spread out somewhat instead of having a stationary target.

Shadow Dance: I'm impressed with this talent after testing. Its limited for Hemo rogues as you'll only be able to get a garrote off once. However for Sub Daggers, getting ~4 extra ambushes off every 2 mins was nice. Combined with Shadowstepping before using Shadow Dance, my first ambush would hit 20% harder. In addition its synergy with initiative is nice as that Ambush will give you 2 cps instead of just 1. Plus it is affected by Preparation allowing you an extra Shadow Dance during a fight. All in all, this seemed as a great dps improver like a 51 pt talent should be.

Honor Among Thieves: Lol this was awesome because it worked on my own crits. Being in a raid this will proc more often, but probably not much more with the 1 sec internal CD on it. Great enhancer to being Sub since Backstab and Ambush have high crit rates.

Slaughter from the Shadows: Another great dps improvment as it made rotations (once I finally learned them) exceptionally easy at keeping them up. CP generation (combined with other talents) seemed almost as powerful as Assassination/SF builds.

In Closing:
Mutilate dps is good, however HTB is a waste atm. It needs its energy cost significantly reduced to about 15-20 instead of 30. Since in raids you won't often have physical debuffs to reduce the cost, this just isn't worth the points. Can't test out Turn the Tables on dummies though, but in raids I expect this talent to further the gap between Combat and Sub builds.

Subtlety dps is good also. Finally it looks like daggers will be competitive with other builds (without dominating) and it looks like sub daggers will be competitive with hemo swords/mace/fist.

Combat has a ways to go. Energy regen doesn't seem right. Dmg is lackluster (I blame Killing spred the most on that). The change in relentless to me seems to have hurt these builds immensely. Combat Daggers is still pathetic compared to every other spec and needs a face lift. That or if you want to backstab...just go sub.

 

erragal

Other classes do lose DPS by bringing utility. Moonkin druids can spend utility talent points on DPS talents, and lose GCD's on applying Faerie Fire. Hunters and Druids lose significant DPS by applying the 3% miss chance debuff. Warlocks lose curse DPS by applying utility curses. Fire Mages lose a bit of DPS applying scorch. I don't know the exact talent spread of all the other classes, but it's very plausible that DK's, Ret Paladins, Shadow Priests etc. could have better DPS talent options than taking their utility talents when they are covered by another class.

 

guljiny

When you tested combat swords did you use shiv or SS to build CPs? I found higher results using Shiv (IP on OH). Also did you use S&D glyph that is available to us at level 70?

 

Akka

Oh please, let's be serious and not say that the cost of using of a GCD to keep faerie fire with the cost of using a third of the combo point generated to keep EA, or the sacrifice of deadly/instant poison to keep wound/mind-numbing are anywhere close.

If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !

 

VeeV's

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with the PvP part.

The reasons why we were made to be a buff sponge, is pvp and more precisely arena. The only way to contain rogues is to make them buff dependant in raids, using "should be max pvp damage" as the bottom line.

As you said each and every nerf with a pve consequence, started as a pvp rebalance and frankly I dont see that changing.

They buff hybrid or support class damage to insane levels, yet in the same time they try to give support/utility talents to pure dps classes.

While that sounds good on paper, reality is for a fact quite different. There are classes with four years worth of tuning done to them towards a specified role. Its easier to bump hybrid dps numbers as the support is there and got tuned since years, you bump up the base dps abilities or add some new ones and youre golden.

Adding dps or new dps talents is much easier than adding utility, that is actually non redundant and fits into the existing design principle.

However changing the rogue that has nothing but damage tweaks done to them since the release is a different case. In our case they design around the arena balance, yet we somehow have to posess dps that is competitive in pve and have raid utility.

The "buff sponge" is still probably the solution, but since stacking is gone and a lot of stuff got redudndant, we cant be stacked with buffs to the BC level. Our utilies are redundant relabeled abilities carbon copied from hunters and warriors, TotT is still not finished and will get nerfed to avoid rogue stacking. We cannot expect the same level of raid utility as the dps bumped hybrids as it would need a complete class review.

Rosy Glasses are nice and so is guarranteed raidspots, but there are rogues with no such luxuries.

If you consider the fact that how competitive a progressive raiding guild is, and how everyone has to fight for their raidspots, the "bring friends" approach is laughable. You either bring your "A" game and perform 100% as expected, or youll sit on the bench listening how your guild is raiding on vent. With a handicap we received It will be a very difficult job to prove our worth.

I cant really say with a straight face that poisons,kick or expose will make the scales tilt our way. All of thoose abilities can be proiduced by other classes with no excessive DPS penalty. Vanish might be a strong argument, but threat is hardly an issue atm on the Beta.

 

Rupp

I never used Shiv. I'll do some more testing incorporating that.

As for Glyphs, I couldnt find anyone selling them when I was on and in the AH all they had were level 18 glyphs.

 

erragal

It was stated that other classes do not lose dps when bringing utility, that's all I was responding to as I was of the understanding there wasn't much awareness that other classes did in fact lose DPS when bringing utility. Just adding some perspective to the conversation.


And between using a GCD and changing specs to higher DPS talents, it can be as much as a 7-8% decrease in overall DPS to bring that utility. Hunters not being able to keep Serpent Sting up in order to apply Serpent Sting is also a very significant DPS drop as many of their new talents hinge on serpent sting, though the exact numbers are dependent on their spec.