If you open with 2x Mutilates, you're pretty much guaranteed to get 5 CP, outside of some unlucky dice rolls. If you open with Garotte you'll have 3 or 4 CPs. If you open with Ambush, you'll have 3, 4, or 5 CPs. Ending up with less than 5 at the start is a little annoying, because if you can't 5pt SnD you won't be able to immediately go into a 5pt Rupture or EA. You'll have to likely refresh your SnD with an Envenom first. You additionally will get more poison proc opportunities with 2x Mutilate. It may very well be more optimal to use Garotte, but I just prefer opening with Mutilate at the moment.

Oh god don't shiv! =x
Just wait a second for the poison to come back up, you can let your energy pool as needed.

Also, I'm pretty sure it's proven that a 51 point Assassination spec for 3.0 Mutilate is superior to one without CttC and HfB.

As an officer in a Twins killing guild, I can only agree with Aldriana here. There are plenty of shit rogues out there. Far too many. We have had an open rogue spot for months and cannot fill it with anybody vaguely competent.

Inability to use cooldowns, inability to keep up slice and dice, inability to gem/gear/enchant properly.

Blizzard has given the rogue community a great compliment. As a group, we are the tightest and most brutal theorycrafters around. (Thanks to Vulajin/Aldriana currently, and others like Kalman in the past)

Whining about not having a raid spot is completely down to so many rogues sucking, not a problem with the rogue class.

I had one question which I don't think has been adressed yet: for leveling, which poisons / finishers will we end up using? DP/IP and envenom? IP/IP and eviscerate? My main concern is that mobs will die faster than we can get up a 5 point stack of DP to use envenom, thereby making it weaker than IP/IP and eviscerate. Of course, the IP/IP requires that you put points in deadly brew to get some poison debuff on the mob so that mutilate doesn't hit like a wet noodle.

Finally, for grinding or leveling, is Cut to the Chase a worthwhile talent, or are we going to be killing things so fast that it'll be useless except in dungeons?

EDIT: And, on a similar not to CttC, are there other talents (for any spec) which are going to be good only for leveling or are going to be less useful for leveling? I know there was discussion earlier about some combat talents being good for leveling, but I'm wondering primarily about little things like Remorsless Attacks, for example.

You have to run DP on one hand or your Mutilates won't get their damage boost. Once you're running DP on one hand it's worthwhile to Envenom instead of Evis (plus you save 3 talent points you can use for something else). As for CttC or not, it depends what you're doing. If you're killing a lot of mobs in proximity to each other, you should have no problem keeping SnD up refreshing from mob to mob. If you're running around a lot, it's not worth it. But IMO it's worth getting just to help up your DPS and be able to solo elite quests -- plus what else are you going to spend 5 points on to get HfB?

On that note, I used to run Wound Poison when soloing stuff as Mutilate. It gave me the debuff, and didn't break my Gouge with a DP tick.

When I ran mutilate for a while to try it out on my way from 60 to 70, I used Crippling/Wounding, just like in pvp. That's what gave me the idea for IP/IP plus Deadly Brew. I'm just wondering if its viable or if the damage of envenom over (probably untalented) eviscerate makes up for the trade from IP to DP.

That's how I do it atm soloing as mutilate. Given wound poison's 50% proc rate in 3.x it looks good as a solo poison right now.

Returning to the discussion concerning slow/fast daggers for muti and IP mh/oh etc etc some pages back:
Given that envenom eats your DP charges, would DP on the weapon that hits most (fastest weap or main hand if mh/oh are same speed) be an advantage? Buffed envenom adds 15% chance to apply poison, so DP has a 45% chance to apply after envenom, 50% with precision, 60% with imp poisons too. If you have DP on your slow weapon, which may be anything between 1.5 and 1.8 speed, after an envenom you're looking at often waiting over 3 seconds for poison to be applied. In those 3 seconds the raid loses the master poisoner debuff on the target, you cant mutilate and you're obviously losing DP uptime. So could it be worth DP on the faster weapon for these reasons? Any numbers or hypathetical ideas would be much appreciated.

As has been stated I'm pretty sure multiple times, you are better off putting Instant Poison on your fastest weapon. Also, I'm definitely not seeing 3s to reapply DP after an Envenom. I have ~95%+ uptime on the typical fight.

Precision doesn't increase poison proc chance, just reduces chance poison will miss (i.e. be resisted).

I do think envenom's cost of DP (and hence Master Poisoner, if there's no ret pally) uptime should be considered. However, you are overestimating it. Assuming windfury only and no haste procs or gear, your offhand attack speed is still 1.15. The expected number of hits until proc would only be 1.22 (only ~95% sure on this math, I'm horrible at statistics). With a very modest 200 hit on gear (again correct me if I'm wrong here--16.9% white miss, 4.4% poison miss) the average downtime would be ~1.05s assuming the envenom lands in the middle of the swing timer and you don't perform any mutilates. In a tight 21s cycle, this is 5% downtime.

However, considering you can usually pool energy before envenom (at least, I have usually been able to on dummy tests), you are likely to have another hit mutilate in the first second after hitting envenom. Assuming two white hits and a mutilate, the chance that your deadly won't have reapplied after a second has passed would only be about 11.5%. I'm sure it will be possible to have much more hit rating and it's impossible to avoid haste rating, so this downtime would realistically be even lower.

Anyway, without running various scenarios through the dps spreadsheet, I imagine that you're still increasing raid dps by using envenom.

I suppose running IP/Wound at least with the current Wound Poison damage numbers may actually work pretty well. It'd just mean Evis instead of Envenom, but with the armor levels of mobs while questing that may not be too bad. As for runners, to be honest I didn't really see many runners at all going up to 80, even in instances.

Sorry for having to bring back the "sky if falling", but there are certain elements about our class, which I find frustrating.

First of all, I do agree, that it is about time, that ferals get a buff, and for that matter prot warriors aswell. In raids, where you bring a few tanks of either sort, they are sort of the odd men out in one-tank bosses, and their contribution is half-a-raider worth (i.e. 1600 dps in a 2500-3000 dps enviroment); as such, the current buff of ferals and prot warriors will increase raid dps and raid utility of those classes, as they become far more flexible.

But, I do feel that all the talk about bringing rogues for interupts (i.e. kick) and Expose Armor is misplaced, as warriors can interupt with the - almost - the same ease as rogues, and both warriors and hunters can reduce armor equally well as rogues. Reduced cast time can also be afflicted by warlock's Curse of Tongues, treath allocation can also be applied by Hunters Misdirection, reduced healing from Wound Poison by warriors' Mortal Strike, and increased critical damage by Paladin's Heart of the Crusader. We are an overlapping class, which only pure raid support lies in Savage Combat (2% increased physical damage), which means Combat Spec, which atm needs serious attention, what Blizzard has promised, so I am holding my breath. As such, with "equal" dps, I do feel that, as a pure dps class, we are getting somewhat sidetracked, as we wont be able to bring anyting unique to raid, which hybrids can.

We have for so long been priviledge, by other classes being weakend by specific roles, but by leveling the playing field, we now stand out as the weak class, as we lack class unique abilities. In WotLK, there wont be any dual glaive rogues, which by the weapon bonus gain a huge advantage in terms of dps. In WotLK, our days of being priviledged are over, and rogues really have to show that they can play their class 110%. Thus, while I do believe, that there always is room for good rogues in raids, and that they will be in the top of the damage meters, I cannot help feeling frustrated about the path Blizzard has taken in regards to make everyone "equal in damage".

I see the problem in how classes were designed originally for a level 60 enviroment, and how our talent trees have developed thru a changing level 70 enviroment and the addition of other classes.

Having said that, I do like how Assassination and Combat now will be, in the way they adress damage distribution. I would still like to see stronger and more versitile poison and bleeding talents in assassination, I would still like to see a haste talent in combat, I would still like to see hemorrage become an added ability to main builders, rather than the pvp only builder as it is now, like I also, as Aldriana, would like to see some worthy of being level 75, 77 and 80 talents (Fan of Knifes and Tricks of the Trade as simply no where near in quality as for instance druids rather overpowered Savage Roar), and finally I would love to see some rogue only utility talent, like a poison that would slow attack speed.

Sometimes I do question Blizzard and their lack of imagination in designing and placing talents. Lets get rid of Enveloping Shadows, where rogues do Van Damma splits to avoid AoE, and lets place talents like Unfair Advantage in Sub, where it belongs, and not as a tier 9 Combat talent.

To me, Blizzard is somewhat overcomplicating the redesign of our class, when they say, that we are "very mathy". Energy and combo points may very well be different to approach than mana cost vs. mana regen, but if anything, theocrafters have shown that it can be done, both by complex equations or by simple math. To me, Blizzard has always been too focussed on DPE from builders, which has made - for instance - backstab weak versus sinister strike, and I do think that they at the moment are beginning to correct that, despite making a few really stupid blunders, like putting Slaughter from the Shadows in tier 10 Sub, rather than a tier 2 or 3 talent, which it should be.

So while I, at least not at the moment, see "the sky falling", I still am rather frustrated about the path Blizzard has chosen to take in terms of "making all dps equal", how rogues lack something unique to bring to a raid, how we lack a supporting ability and how we still have so many unadressed issues in terms of talents and their tier distribution.

Speaking as a rogue, I want to be taken to a raid, because I can make a difference, because I can contribute with something unique, and where we have been rather priviledged in being top damage dealers, those days are beginning to look like they are over, so I now hope that Blizzard will grant our class a new contributing factor, which makes us worthwhile considering.

I had the same experience with Shiv builds, especially with a WF totem. This build is actually partially GCD limited and it's near impossible not to cap energy on a "lucky" string of combat potency procs.
I rebound my Shiv key to the mouse scrolling wheel to be sure to really use every GCD...

On the other end, the mutilate builds will also have issues performing close to the spreadsheet values because of the desynchronisation of HfB and CttC cycles. You can't afford to let any of them drop or the DPS penalty is drastic and over time it happens that both cycles end more or less at the time so you either have to refresh HfB early with 3-4s left on the buff or do a 2-3 Evenom to renew SnD, in either case you're losing DPS compared to the spreadsheet optimum.
On any boss where you cycle is likely to be interrupted because of stuns/movement/whatever, Mutilate will likely suffer a significant DPS penalty because of CttC cycle interruption

Although some water have flowed through the river since you wrote this, I find it very interesting. I believe it raises a few questions, where the notable one is:

Is "all classes should be equal" based on:

a) a fully buffed raid enviroment?

b) a baseline where 'self buffs' are the only buffs to apply?

or in the worst case scenario:
c) equal dps without any buffs at all?

Can the following be concluded in each case?

a) Rogues scale better, becase the lack of 'self buffs' makes them have a lower base dps which has to be caught up on?

b) Rogues have a higher base dps without buffs to compensate for the lack of 'self buffs' and thereby equal the difference?

c) Rogues have equal base dps as other classes, and is simply sub par to other classes in a raiding enviroment due to poor scaling and bad design of finisher/cp/buff mechanics?

I find it hard to conclude anything as long as we don't know Blizzards point of reference. If we knew exactly where they measured this "equality" then it would be alot easier to find out whether to cry or cheer for the changes.

I don't have time to look for the post, but I'm pretty sure they stated they're balancing for single target DPS in a 25-man raid, with the assumption of all the buffs.

As I said in earlier posts, I honestly do think we're doing very well damage-wise in 10 mans right now. I just don't feel like we're scaling from 10->25 mans as well as other classes are at the moment. And I really think Wandering Plague should be nerfed :P.

There is not necessarily a "huge imbalance" making rogues "unable to play heroics".
I'm not in a doomsayer's outfit, I'm only seeing problems and speaking aloud to raise awareness about them.
What problem I'm talking about isn't that rogues will be "unplayable", only that, because they have the same power than other classes while raid-buffed, they will be severely underpowered without these buffs.

To take a rough example (numbers will be way off, they're just here to illustrate the concept) :
Say that rogue A has a DPS of approximatively 3000. 1500 comes from his baseline DPS unbuffed, the other 1500 comes from raids buffs.
Blizzard says "all DPS spec must be roughly in line with each others". So the enhancement chaman aside the rogue is doing, say, 2800 DPS. 1400 comes from his baseline DPS, the rest from the buffs.

Now, they walk out of the raid and do some quests on their separate way.
The rogue, being without buff, now only does his 1500 baseline DPS. With his Savage Combat, it goes up to 1530.
The chaman, without buff, does 1400 baseline DPS. But then, he still has WF (+20 % to his white damage), and his rage (+10 % to his AP), then his Strength of Earth totem. All in all, with all these buffs, he can probably pretty easily goes up to 1800 or 2100 DPS.

So outside of raid, the chaman has a large DPS advantage over the rogue. He can offers to a group higher personal DPS, and also buffs to other DPS, and also keep the advantage of being able to change role.
Even in a buff-stacked-group (with a holy paly, an arms warrior, a feral druid and another enhancement chaman), where all his buffs are already covered, he still bring the same DPS than the rogue.
So in the worst case, he's just as a good DPS as the rogue. In the best case (a buffless group), he has higher personal DPS and lots of buffs for everyone. And in all cases, he has the hybrid advantage of being able to respec if he feels so.

That's the situation I worry about when I say "subpar outside raid".
In a raid, where all the buffs are covered, a rogue has its place, though he must certainly feel a bit bland, adding nothing really specific.
Outside a raid, the fact that all is tailored to make every class equal in raid, make it so that he risks to be quite underpowered.
In answer to your first, I would say that I agree, Blizzard won't make a class useless. They already have kept classes quite underpowered for long times in the past, but never to the point of being really a liability.
Though, I would like to point that I'm not saying "we'll disappear". What worry/annoy me, is, well, the lack of "fairness" the design philosophy of Blizzard is carrying, particularly between raid-provider/raid-sponges and "pure" classes/"hybrid" classes.

It could be as well in the "game design" thread, but as it concerns rogues a lot, and it'll be a possible (probable ?) problem in WotLK, I think it has its place here.
Common sense would say that, for all classes to be equal/fair, they should have strengths and weaknesses, advantages and drawbacks. Providing a strong buff is a strength in group. Having these buffs even soloing is another part of this strength. Being able to change spec and role if you wish, without having to reroll another character is a strong advantage.
A class having neither of these both strengths, should have specific advantages of its own to compensate. Higher DPS in raid was what the rogue were having. By removing this one, not only rogues lose their own class-specific strength, but they will also gain another weakness : being underpowered without buff (as I explained in the firt part of this post).

I'm not saying that we won't have our raid spot and that the rogue class will disappear (so I'm not in the "sky is falling" range), but I see a great unbalance problem in the fact that we have no more specific strength to compensate for our weaknesses, and that outside of full-buffed environment we have added weaknesses. It's a point of "fairness", and of balance, not necessarily a point of "live or die".
Where I strongly disagree with you, is when you say that these are "minor concerns". It's a game, and the feeling of playing a class being in "unfair position", or having drawbacks without comparable strengths to compensate, is surely what I call a major concerns (of course, everyone is welcome to disagree, but I think I've at least tried to make a convincing argument).

And I would also add, as a side point : you say you're having trouble to find good T6 rogue. Well, I'm pretty sure it's hard to find ANY good player T6 geared. People decked in T6 aren't a dime a dozen, usually, and if they're good, they're not likely to wander guildless too long. That's not really saying a lot about the specific rogue situation - or I may be off, and perhaps there IS an overflowing of at least some classes good players decked in T6, but I would honestly be very surprised, I know it's certainly not the case on my server.
The point of reference is clearly "fully-buffed raid situation". Lots of hints about this exists, like the (very welcome) changes to raid-buff overlapping so that you can have them all with much fewer class/spec, and the comments of Blizzard how they try to make every class equal in DPS so that you can bring whoever you want in raid once most of the basic buffs are covered.

I think that is very important to recognise. It is a very natural human response to fear change, especially when the nature of the change is poorly understood or communicated. You can be sure that there are forum threads in which all number of DPS classes (or hybrids with DPS specs) are dreading the lich king raids where all their spots will be taken by rogues.

There is a recurrent theme across a number of these posts. "My spot is safe because I contribute XYZ, but...". Whether XYZ is that you are a raid leader, class leader, guild officer, or just that you have 99.9% attendance and give maximum commitment to every raid. If Blizzard succeeds, we will be picking our raid members by these attributes and not the class they selected on the character creation screen. I do not think the game will be worse off as a result.



I recently realised something that may have been obvious before about Onslaught. If you stack hunger for blood in stealth, onslaught reduces the cost to 20 energy (abilities used in stealth or for 6 seconds after). If you did happen to let HFB drop, vanishing to re-stack then re-opening would significantly reduce the penalty. I'm wondering what other benefits onslaught has. The other obvious one would be some kind of pre-vanish energy/combo point pooling to allow you to get 2 finishers and 2 mutilates inside that 6 second window. Vanish->Rupture->mutx2->Envenom?

That's an interesting point about Overkill. The thought of using it in conjunction with Vanish mid-fight didn't even cross my mind. I was always just thinking of it in terms of the initial advantage. That does seem like a pretty clever use of the ability though, and it's not like we need our aggro drop (at least in current encounters). 3 minute cooldown now also means that you will be able to do that mini-burst at least 2x during most raid fights.

If you could time it well, you could also time in a HFB refresh while vanished. If you could pull off 1 HFB refresh, 2 finishers and 2 mutilates, that's 50 energy saved which is not to be sniffed at. To keep the white damage loss to a minimum, you could macro the vanish->hfb->finisher part as a castsequence.

Although neat, 50energy on a 3mins cooldown hardly compares to the energy provided by AR or saved by Premed.

I'm not sure how vitality works, but I'm assuming it ups our standard energy regen from 10/second to 11/second. If it's just a straight up 10%, we're talking 22 energy/second on AR, translating to 330 energy/15 seconds every 5 minutes, or 1.10 energy per second extra (not sure if I'm thinking correctly)? Could someone else tell me if it affects our talented energy intake (combat potency, relentless)?

Saving those 50 energy per three minutes translates to ~0.31 EPS extra. I have no idea how you could average that out and calculate if it'd be worth it killing two seconds or so of white damage but I'd guesstimate that it probably is. I'm not quite sure if the current mutilate builds still maintain a rough 50% white damage, it'd be easy to calculate it probably (calculate 50% of your DPS for two seconds, add in poison proc possibility somehow, translate the 50 energy into a partial mutilate or finisher and compare?). I'm just no good at mathematic models, I just follow around what you guys theorize around here which I can more or less follow the concept behind them.

I'd say it certainly isn't comparable to AR or Premed, but since mutilate is ahead of combat for now this might just prove a neat gimmick to get some additional output.

EDIT: Fixed numbers x_x