PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion - Page 111

Ashere · 09/04/08, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

Regarding Relentless Strikes' new position in Subtlety, I wrote the following post analyzing the various PvE builds that were likely to exist in Wrath, and the effects this change had on them:

WoW Forums -> [Feedback] Relentless Strikes in Subtlety

Short summary: although it seems like spending 5 points to get the effect of what was previously 1 is a big deal, it's really not. Most builds keep roughly the same DPS, and if Combat builds end up desiring Serrated Blades, then they also get some stealth talents that are nice for soloing/farming/whatever. Hemo builds gain a ton. Relentless Strikes would be fantastic as a three-pointer, I think, but its being a five-pointer is not explicitly unfair or devastating to the class.

I've just read the summery, and I think it's quite a fair review.
What Blizz seems to have done is giving each tree some DPS at the start of the tree, to reduce reluctance to invest into it.
On top of that, people like to forget that that single point into Relentless Strikes gave roughly the same DPS increase that 5 points into Dual Wield gave. DW was maybe slightly better, but comparing to any other talent, those two were awfully close. So effectively, the point-value of Relentless Strikes has been brought in-line with Dual Wield. It's still pretty much mandatory to any build, but much easier to grab as well now (5 pts vs 11, remember?)

Just grab a webpage where you can try out the talents, and place 20 points into each tree. I came up with the following theoretical build: War Tools :: Talent tree Rogue WotLK Beta 03/09/08
Now, the point is not whether that build is any good or not. What we're interested in is how strong the talents involved are:

Assassination: Malice is more or less mandatory for starters, Ruthlessness still is the best talent on the second tier, unless you're backstab/mutilate, then you'll want puncturing instead. Vigor is too good to ignore as well, especially for dagger builds, since it makes energy management so much easier. Other builds may skip it, but dagger builds will definitely want it. Now, all talents in the first 4 tiers add to your DPS. Some more then others, but they all do. Pick any filler you like, and your damage goes up, even if it's very minimal under certain circumstances (like Remorseless).

Combat: Dual Wield has always been a must have, and it it still is. On the next tier, you just have to grab Imp SnD, and after you maxed that out you'll want Precision. Combat Builds find another must-have in Imp SS, while Dagger and Fist users will find Close Quarters a must have. So, that's 13 (non Sinister Strike, non fist/dagger) upto 20 (Sinister Strike build using daggers or fist) talent points spent well. For those who don't use daggers or fists and who don't use Sinister Strike as well, this means 7 talent points into fillers. And let's be honest: the early non-DPS talents in the Combat tree all offer nice utility. I don't know, but anyone who finds himself having more than 5 filler points during these first 4 tiers in the Combat tree, should simply smack his/her head against a wall untill he/she figures out that it only requires a change of weapons to get through this part. A swordspec-hemo build will do more or less on par by equiping a fist in the MH with the sword in the OH. Combat-Sword and Combat-Mace rogues will need Imp SS anyway, so they won't have more than 5 filler points either.

Subtlety: Well, this used to be the stepchild of DPS, but Relentless Strikes will still be pretty mandatory to keep your cycles running fluently. The second tier is pretty much lacking for DPS, so you'll probably sink 2 points into Opportunity as well, leaving you 3 points now for non-DPS fillers if you want to go any deeper into the tree. In the third tier we find Serrated Blades, which may not be a must-have, but it is very good nonetheless. It's probably on par with Vigor, though Vigor is more situational, depending on what type of encounters you do (Vigor for short encounters (trash, grinding, farming, PvP) or Serrated Blades for long duration bosses/raiding). Setup and Initiative in the 4th tier aren't the best of talents either, but they're still interesting pickups. Overall, you'll experience about 6 filler talents through these first 4 tiers.

I find it very noticable how Assassination has no non-DPS fillers, Combat sometimes has non-DPS fillers and Sub always has. But each tree has it's own DPS talents in the first few tiers now, so nothing should stop people from looking any further into those trees either. The first 4 tiers of those trees seems slightly more ballanced now, with the most important parts in reach for anyone (Malice, Ruthlessness, DW, Relentless and Opportunity).

Dorvan · 09/04/08, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by Arindelest

Well, not necessarily. I don't think it's likely -- but if you didn't need to pool energy to make the cycle sustainable (and with a large amount of SnD slack) you wouldn't want to pool energy before a SnD(CttC) refresh, since that lowers Rupture uptime. Although with the new Rupture glyph we may be more worried about not overwriting our previous Ruptures than trying to maximize uptime, it all depends how it plays out.

Yes, but if we're running a rupture/envenom cycle SnD uptime is going to to be really tight, unlike the high-slack cycles Mut is used to working with now. Rupture uptime is a much smaller concern than SnD uptime, which is a real problem for a 2 damage finisher Mut cycle, espcially if Imp SnD is out of the picture.

Tleilax · 09/04/08, 1:18 PM

With yesterday's talent tree redesign announcement, Rogues speccing down the combat tree are now required to spend EIGHT talent points on talents that have ZERO DPS increase to get down to Prey on the Weak. Example:

War Tools :: Talent tree Rogues as per Blue

To get down the tree I have spent 2 points in Endurance, 2 points in Imp Spring, 2 points in Lightning Reflexes, and 2 points in Unfair Advantage.

I think the obvious conclusion here is that these changes need to be rethought, especially in light of the fact that the combat tree has been up to now our primary raiding tree. Unfair advantage as a Tier 9 talent is extremely underwhelming as this is a solo grinding/leveling talent that brings next to nothing to a raid and therefore should not be situated at the bottom of our DPS tree. Throwing specialization is useless and should be removed completely.

Hopefully the blue proposed buff to Lightning Reflexes is going to be at minimum some sore of DPS increasing talent.

Ariashley · 09/04/08, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by adolchristin

Quick question here; I searched through This and the Roguecraft 101 and the Rogue: PvE Discussion thread but wasn't able to find a quick answer to this question so here goes.

From a purely PvE perspective; among the horde races which do you feel is the best in terms of racial abilities?

I was going to go Troll for the 10-30% haste every three minutes is really good since it's percentage based but the 30 energy every 2 minutes Blood Elves gain from Arcane Torrent seems as though it could be good as well.

Thanks for helping a soon to be rogue out!

For PvE - the Blood Elf racial is crap. It doesn't work on most bosses or even most trash in raids. Completely worthless. It does work in PvP as an extra interrupt.

Ariashley · 09/04/08, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Yeah, honestly, with rogues having good aggro management, I can see the rogues setting up a Tricks of the Trade rotation on each other - no one gets too far ahead on aggro since you're all using it, and you get a 15% damage boost 20% of the time each.

Random curiosity: what happens if two rogues Tricks of the Trade each other? Who gets the aggro? I wonder if they thought about that at all.

By doing tricks of the trade on the tank, you increase threat cap for those people without good aggro management or your own threat cap on threat sensitive fights, like Bloodboil (where I use vanish at least once). I see your point about the damage bonus, but I know that hunters and warlocks (we usually have 3 hunters and 2 locks) would be thrilled to see the tank get a threat boost. Raising the threat cap for 5 people > damage for 1 person imo. Would also keep one of our insane healers and shadow priests alive more. Lately, I know I've pulled aggro a few times because I've gotten so used to never looking at the threat meters on any fights except the particularly threat sensitive ones. Our MT threat generation hasn't kept up with DPS threat generation - since pretty much every item point he gets is more pure avoidance and actually reduces his threat. This problem is even more evident with a pally tank, since less block + more avoidance very clearly = less threat. Teron Gorefiend stabbing me in the face for the loss.

It will always be a question of which use of the ability will cause the greatest overall increase to raid DPS. Maybe it's casting it on another DPS if we reset and don't have to worry about threat again for several tiers of gear. My guess is that it's a layer of rogue raid utility to make up for the fact that we're going to be below hunters, locks and possibly mages and warriors on the damage meter.

Zaniel · 09/04/08, 2:08 PM

Originally Posted by Ariashley

By doing tricks of the trade on the tank, you increase threat cap for those people without good aggro management or your own threat cap on threat sensitive fights, like Bloodboil (where I use vanish at least once). I see your point about the damage bonus, but I know that hunters and warlocks (we usually have 3 hunters and 2 locks) would be thrilled to see the tank get a threat boost. Raising the threat cap for 5 people > damage for 1 person imo. Would also keep one of our insane healers and shadow priests alive more. Lately, I know I've pulled aggro a few times because I've gotten so used to never looking at the threat meters on any fights except the particularly threat sensitive ones. Our MT threat generation hasn't kept up with DPS threat generation - since pretty much every item point he gets is more pure avoidance and actually reduces his threat. This problem is even more evident with a pally tank, since less block + more avoidance very clearly = less threat. Teron Gorefiend stabbing me in the face for the loss.

It will always be a question of which use of the ability will cause the greatest overall increase to raid DPS. Maybe it's casting it on another DPS if we reset and don't have to worry about threat again for several tiers of gear. My guess is that it's a layer of rogue raid utility to make up for the fact that we're going to be below hunters, locks and possibly mages and warriors on the damage meter.

I still hold to the belief that the ability should be tweaked slightly so that the rogue always gets the damage boost, and is thereby giving even more (potent) threat to his target, which would then always be a tank.

Doing it this way limits the stackable nature of the utility (as only the threat gen benefits the raid), and it also serves the more "selfish" class nature of the rogue. If that still isn't enough, put a 15sec debuff on the tank not allowing any more trickery, and call it good.

Darlal · 09/04/08, 2:10 PM

I sincerely hope we're not below locks, warriors, hunters, and possibly mages on the damage meters. I understand Bliz's goal of allowing all classes to do solid dps, this doesn't change the fact that rogues have always been the most pure dps class and hopefully will remain king in this arena on the kinds of fights we excel at. Rogues are already behind hunters on movement based fights, and behind warlocks on many high-armor fights, and this should remain to be true. That said, the old argument that rogues CANNOT spec out of dps is still true. I'd like to see mages, warlocks, and hunters at 85-90% of rogue dps on non-movement fights, but I'll be unhappy if rogues are routinely behind locks, warriors, hunters, and possibly mages...and I haven't seen any evidence that this will be the case.

Dorvan · 09/04/08, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by Darlal

I sincerely hope we're not below locks, warriors, hunters, and possibly mages on the damage meters. I understand Bliz's goal of allowing all classes to do solid dps, this doesn't change the fact that rogues have always been the most pure dps class and hopefully will remain king in this arena on the kinds of fights we excel at. Rogues are already behind hunters on movement based fights, and behind warlocks on many high-armor fights, and this should remain to be true. That said, the old argument that rogues CANNOT spec out of dps is still true. I'd like to see mages, warlocks, and hunters at 85-90% of rogue dps on non-movement fights, but I'll be unhappy if rogues are routinely behind locks, warriors, hunters, and possibly mages...and I haven't seen any evidence that this will be the case.

The main thrust of your argument is that Rogues can't spec out of being a DPS'er, and yet (setting aside the objections to that line of reasoning) your primary beef is with our DPS relative to mages, warlocks, and hunters? Huh?

Ashere · 09/04/08, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Darlal

I sincerely hope we're not below locks, warriors, hunters, and possibly mages on the damage meters.

If you're seriously worried about that, use Trick of the Trade on them instead, and let their increased threat sort out the problem.
On a more serious note: Trick of the Trade rotating with other rogues could be an interesting activity. Especially if there's any fights where threat isn't an issue. If threat is an issue: just use it on the tank or the off-tank. I can easily think up circumstances where I'd want to dump a load of threat on someone. Some are maybe abnormal circumstances which you don't usually prepare yourself for, but I'm definitely sure that raids are going to love this ability.

• Aldriana · 09/04/08, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by Pharmacon

Did I miss something? Why are people bitching about Vitality being a crappy filler talent. 2% Agi is nothing to be mad about in a so called "filler" talent. Sure it's not supremely awesome (being between 12-20 Agi) but it's not like it's +1/+2 static Agi. Not to mention I'd rather have the 4% stam that Vitality yields rather than picking up 2% parry for the same point cost.

Vitality is perfectly good filler, but it is slightly underwhelming for it's position in the tree. Consider: raid buffed, I have an average of about 900 agility. So each point in Vitality gives me about 9 agility, which, in EP terms, is worth something like 2.4 * 9 = 22 EP. Compare this to, for instance, Malice (22 x 1.9 = 42), Precision (15.7 * 2.8 = 44), and so forth, and you can see why people are a bit underwhelmed.

So, basically: is it a *bad* talent? No. Do you take it over non-damage filler? Definitely. But is it a bit underwhelming given it's late position in the tree? Yes.

Originally Posted by Ariashley

By doing tricks of the trade on the tank, you increase threat cap for those people without good aggro management or your own threat cap on threat sensitive fights, like Bloodboil (where I use vanish at least once). I see your point about the damage bonus, but I know that hunters and warlocks (we usually have 3 hunters and 2 locks) would be thrilled to see the tank get a threat boost. Raising the threat cap for 5 people > damage for 1 person imo. Would also keep one of our insane healers and shadow priests alive more. Lately, I know I've pulled aggro a few times because I've gotten so used to never looking at the threat meters on any fights except the particularly threat sensitive ones. Our MT threat generation hasn't kept up with DPS threat generation - since pretty much every item point he gets is more pure avoidance and actually reduces his threat. This problem is even more evident with a pally tank, since less block + more avoidance very clearly = less threat. Teron Gorefiend stabbing me in the face for the loss.

Well, obviously, if the tank needs it, you put it on the tank. But consider: if you have two rogues dumping 20% of their threat on the tank, plus giving said tank a 15% damage bonus, your tank will quite literally be generating 50% more threat than they current do. And I don't believe for a second that anyone needs that much additional threat cushion to max out their DPS. So, yes, you throw a few TotT onto the tank, and keep an eye on the situation to see if he needs some extra boosts - but when he doesn't (and he shouldn't, most of the time), the rogues use it as a damage buff.

Originally Posted by Zaniel

I still hold to the belief that the ability should be tweaked slightly so that the rogue always gets the damage boost, and is thereby giving even more (potent) threat to his target, which would then always be a tank.

Doing it this way limits the stackable nature of the utility (as only the threat gen benefits the raid), and it also serves the more "selfish" class nature of the rogue. If that still isn't enough, put a 15sec debuff on the tank not allowing any more trickery, and call it good.

This is a possibility, of course, but it makes the ability somewhat less strategic. Right now, there's some strategy involved in using it - sometimes, you use it to help the tanks; other times, you use it for DPS. If it always increased your damage, you'd always just dump it on the tank, which is less interesting. Frankly, as much as I like doing more damage myself, I do have to say that I'd prefer the more strategic version, as it makes the class more challenging and interesting to play. One of my current annoyances about the rogue class is that you have to be truly retarded not to realize 95% of the damage potential of the class; hence, your average raid leader can't tell the difference between a good rogue and a bad one. I would like to see a little more differentiation based on skill, such that there's definite benefits to having good rogues as opposed to the first applicant to walk in off the street. And strategic abilities like the current TotT are one way to do that.

Pharmacon · 09/04/08, 3:39 PM

I'm with Zaniel on this one. The damage bonus should be to the Rogue, producing more threat for the tank. This prevents rogues from buffing other DPS (which I'm sure is not Blizz's intention). I'd much rather see that than a bunch of rogues abusing the ability and getting it nerfed to a purely "my threat is your threat" situation like Hunter MD.

As far as the ability itself, it's going to get nerfed. No way around it. Hunter MD is on a 2 minute cooldown. Assuming we are able to put up as much threat in the 6 sec time vs. the Hunter's 3 attacks, that makes TotT four times as powerful.

Antiarc · 09/04/08, 3:46 PM

Thing is, I think TotT is going to be too powerful, or they're going to have to make fights unwinnable without it.

If I do 2k DPS, and that DPS is considered the tank's, then I'm going to crank out 12k damage in 6 seconds. Times the 1.45 tank modifier is 17,400 threat every 30 seconds - +580 TPS average for the tank, and that's at BC DPS levels. Depending on the exhaustion debuff on the tank, rogues would be capable of providing utterly insane threat boosts, completely trivializing the entire concept of threat.

folderol · 09/04/08, 3:59 PM

Whatever damage benefits TofT brings to the target, when used on cooldown it's a 20% reduction in sustained threat for the rogue over the combat. As such, it's nearly as good as a personal blessing of salvation.

Additionally, if you use TotT on the main tank and assuming our threat generation in WotLK is on the same order of magnitude as the tank generation, you hand him a sustained 20 to 25% threat increase which is probably a huge utility for the raid DPS.

It seems like Blizzard is giving us the WotLK equivalent of a raid wide Blessing of Salvation, except that we achieve this effect by increasing the tank threat instead of decreasing the DPS threat, with a 20% bonus threat reduction for the rogue himself and the added benefit of be able to use the trick as a DPS increase on a raid member when threat is not concern for the raid or as a Hunter misdirect.

PSGarak · 09/04/08, 4:07 PM

It suddenly occured to me that TotT's threat-dump is most useful for offtanks and tank rotations, rather than maintanks getting an even astronomicaler (yeah, I said it) threat buffer. Warrior and Paladins have the most problems with threat when they're the second tank on a target, warriors because of rage and paladins because of their porcupine-style threat mechanics. Suddenly giving them the threat of an additional DPSer could really help boost that, and timing the 6-second window would be even more useful for forcing the transition to occur in a tighter window. I'm reasonably sure you can force a tank transition under any but the most retarded of circumstances by pooling energy and saving CB or Shadowdance (AR wouldn't stack well with energy pooling, it's GCD-limited except maybe for backstab).

Eulenspiegel · 09/04/08, 5:00 PM

I'm facinated with the TotT possibilites - there's so much that would be possible with this and I wish I had a beta key so I could test it out when it goes to beta. Alas...

Anyway, defenitly keep up the conversation on that. I just have a quick interjection, and am wondering about the feasability of using Shiv to mitigate a CttC/Envenom mutilate cycle.

Currently, the reason shiv is never used is because of its low DPE, especially with dagger normalization. But with Deadly Brew, this should get a slight upgrade as far as DPE goes, as you will be getting a guaranteed IP application. Currently on live, it has been shown that a fast dagger in the OH vs a slow dagger has little difference in overall dps in a mutilate build, but related to the cost of a shiv, the difference in energy between the two dagger speeds is 3-5 energy.

Currently, finishers are a low part of our damage because we must use most of our combo points to keep up SnD. With CttC, this may no longer be a concern - and the value of a combo point relative to energy will increase, to the point that mutilating with 4 combo points on the target already might not be desired. Rather than use a 4 point finisher, tossing a lower energy shiv (28-29 energy with the shiv glyph, considering good dps glyphs are far and few between) to get you to a 5 CP finisher might be a good idea. As well, this might ensure that you have a full 5 applications of DP on the target in a short, one mutilate cycle. I'd imagine cycles going like this:

No Ruth, Non-crit Mutilate = 2 CP, mutilate again, finisher (chance of still having 4 CP is around 5%?)
Ruth, Non-crit Mutilate = 3 CP, mutilate again, finisher
No Ruth, Crit Mutilate = 3 CP, mutilate again, finisher
Ruth, Crit Mutilate = 4 CP, shiv, finisher.

A ruthlessness proc, plus a crit mutilate, shiv glyph with 1.3 speed dagger, and a 10 energy finisher (due to RS) = 60+28+10 energy spent on the cycle = 98 energy per cycle. Thats energy efficiency to me. Is shiv's dpe too low, considering Deadly Brew and the Shiv Glyph for this to work?