There has been plenty of (well warranted, but perhaps pre-mature?) discussion of what the optimal build for pve DPS would be- but has anyone worked out an optimal grinding build yet? we've got 10 lvls to grind before we have to start worrying about topping meters.

While this would be an awesome change, I see the caster PvPers of the world melting down. It'd translate to unlimited (well, energy limited) Deadly Throws in the arenas. No more kiting, no more casting.

With a focus macro, it would create fun interrupts on Council, though (with Gladiator Gloves).

Not that they couldn't code it, but I'd be equally happy with them tweaking SF to have it make a CP buffer that stored extra combo points (above 5) and simply put them back into play when a finisher got used. Change targets? Lose the points.

So you scored a CritMut at 4 CP? Two CP's go into the hopper and are placed back into your pool after you used Rupture/Envenom/Eviscerate/whatever. Plus, you could still get benefit from Ruthlessness is you chose the talent. You possibly use a finisher right into 3CP's. It also fits well into how the Assassination tree is designed.

I was planning on using something along the lines of
War Tools :: Talent tree Rogues as per Blue
then putting 5 pts into imp dual-wielding.

Essentially if you want to level, 21 points in sub is a must.
imp sap for grouping
imp stealth because you will be sneaking around mobs 2-3 levels higher than you
elusiveness and prep for quicker oh shit buttons

While mobility is a big issue in those fights, the difference in dps uptimes doesn't make up for the lack of damage on ShS build compared to combat specs. Getting to boss 2-3 seconds earlier is nice and all, but considering difference in DPS was estimated to be 15% or so in "never move" -situation in old Roguecraft thread, which would mean combat rogue would need to spend 9 seconds per minute outside while ShS rogue can go on, and that doesn't currently happen in those fights, except maybe for Kil 'Jaeden (I haven't seen this fight so I have no idea) or Archimonde (in a case you can use ShS like blink and interrupt the Air Burst). Energy pooling will of course happen, which will diminish the gap between ShS and combat obviously, but I wouldn't think this being such a huge gap closer between these specs. Then again I might be screwing up the napkin math in my head.

Now what comes to fillers, I don't mind spending points to talents that I have some use for in endgame pve-raids. I've especially liked Improved Sprint in some bosses and trash, but the talents that only has some use if you're stupid enough to go in taking cleaves like Lightning Reflexes, Deflection and Riposte, or simply doesn't work on anything relevant like Blade Twisting or Improved Kick, I really start getting annoyed when only use of the talents I spend my points at are simply to fill the needed amount to gain later talents. Then again, there's still plenty of time and maybe we'll see some changes in all this regarding completely useless fillers, perhaps Blood Spatter in combat tree considering it's placing in Assassination is so weird it being such poison+Envenom buffing tree.

Providing rage is hardly the kind of utility we really need. The heart of TotT is providing threat, and currently the DPS boosting feels tacked on. Only two tanks would benefit (and marginally) from having their DPS increased directly, and those only because they work off rage mechanics. But every warrior and druid, until they completely outgear an instance, tends to have plenty of rage when tanking. Heroic Strike is a rage dump for a reason. So while providing raw DPS boosts to the tanks will be helpful to some, it creates such a small benefit, and not even for all tanks, that it's not worth mentioning. It would be better to just keep the DPS increase for ourselves (letting the devs balance our DPS around it being used every cooldown) and then having us transmit that improved threat to the tank. The ability would then be worth the same amount to every tank, favoring none. I see this as a good thing in light of blizz's new direction with interchangeability.

I have a feeling that the only reason that Blizzard is holding off on making such a change is because they're unsure of the ramifications of giving Rogues a controlled 15% DPS increase in PVP on a 30 second cooldown.

Mind you, this presents the element of having to eventually balance out the fact that our level 75 ability will be nearly useless for Rogue+Healer in 2v2 (or at least not nearly as useful as to a 2 DPS team), or Rogue+Double Healer in 3's, etc.

Then again, current signs indicate that Blizzard is holding off on making any serious attempt balance PVP until much later in the testing process.

I have a feeling you're right. However, is the ability even implemented yet? They'd have to implement it before we can begin to test it before we can balance it :P

That said, I think the numbers will be reworked somehow. Having a 6 second duration seems fine, but having that duration on a 30 second cooldown does seem like a high percentage uptime. When considering also that the hunter Misdirect is on a 2 minute cooldown, TotT becomes both very potent and very powerful. I think the cooldown will be increased before it goes Live. 1 minute seems like a good number. Then it would also be a much lower DPS increase (to whomever we can use it on) than the original idea suggests, too.

I think TotT will be incredibly useful for unconventional tanking situations- i.e., caster tanks, MC'ed tanks, transportation fights (c'thun/kalecgos style), etc.

One thing that seems to consistently not be mentioned in this discussion is the increase to tank DPS in WotLK. Tanks will be doing a lot closer DPS to "DPS classes," and additionally a lot more of their threat will be generated through their own damage. Even if they're only doing 50% of our damage, at 3000 DPS they're doing 1500 and 15% of that is not insiginificant especially if it's contributing a lot to their threat at the same time.

The point is though, that the threat in our hands vs. the tank's is still more threat (assuming that our threat put on them is suspect to the tank's threat modifier like it is with MD) as well as more damage for the raid.

Edit: To Halfdane. That's definitely a matter of preference. As it is right now, I would infinitely much rather go off soloing in my PvP spec. Mobility is one of the major reasons, getting caught in world PvP as PvE spec sucks is the other. But again, that's definitely personal, but I'll be going for ShS plus wherever the talents fall in combat/assassination.

If (as you desire) my CP's are always applied before a maneuver, it's the same as saying that I always have 1CP 'banked' plus one waiting for prior to any future maneuver. Thus Deadly Throw would ALWAYS be available at 1CP, even if I presently show zero CP's. Yes? With 1 CP, I can spam it endlessly.

If you are suggesting that Ruthlessness pre-procs the CP, then what percentage chance do you use for determining whether or not the Ruthlessness would even proc? Its chance to proc is determined by the number of CP's that you have when you hit a finisher. Which may change because Ruthlessness may pre-proc. Which may change the chances that it would proc. Which would change the chances that it would pre-proc. I think you can see how it becomes a circular logic loop unless you're at exactly 5 CP's.

If banking were allowed (instead of pre-CP'ing), you could potentially get two Deadly Throws in, though it would imply that you must have burned all 5 CP's on the first DT (else you wouldn't have any banked). The first would be using the existing 5 CP's. Potentially a second DT using banked CP's. But since DT cannot proc Ruthlessness nor create CP's, you'd never be able to do a third without actually applying fresh CP's to the target via another method.

I think I have it straight, but I invite you to expound.