Jagiya

*nod*
Effectively, what I was trying to demonstrate, is that if Focused Attacks were triggered by Offhand crits only, you'd be gemming for a lot more hit rating (as opposed to Crit/agi gems) to validate the talent. So the crit you would have gained via crit/agi gems is lost, resulting in a huge decrease in Seal Fate/Focused Attacks DPS.

 

• Aldriana

And Chalon's point is that you're wrong.

1) Your OH doesn't miss any more than your MH - the two hands hit (almost) the exact same amount. If Focused Attacks gave twice as much regen and was only on OHs, this would have roughly no effect whatsoever in terms of balance, assuming you're using two daggers of equal speed.
2) Even if that weren't the case, how often you crit has absolutely nothing to do with how often you hit. Stacking hit does absolutely nothing for Focused Attacks, and would still do nothing even if it were OH only.

 

Ashere

Or in even other words: the crits you're looking for are not critting hits, but they are crits. Your white melee attacks use the 1-roll system (unlike yellow attacks, which are 2-roll), so even having a negative hitrating wouldn't change the amount of crits you make. It's your crit-rating that matters.

 

Fearendil

Do we have numbers on a combat/daggers build (13/51/7 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000)

I'd like to now if the loss of 2 pure dps points in the combat tree makes this a viable dps spec over a classical sword build and the difference in dps from a mutilate build.

Is there a way to close the gap with mutilate by optimizing weapon speed for combat/daggers and does shiv scales better than BS in a spec like this?

 

saedo

Sorry to kind of bringing back a topic from a few pages back, but I was wondering, how accurate are the training dummies supposed to imitate a boss? I went and tried the boss one at Stormwind and found it was susceptible to Daze. Does anyone know if it's a flaw in the dummies or are bosses in Wrath able to be dazed? Maybe not movement slowed by daze, but just have a debuff slot taken by it.

 

Ikilu

You can go here and download Vulajin's spreadsheet and plug in gear and spec:

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t27244-r...t_spreadsheet/

I don't really know where Aldrianna's is actually.

I'm sorry Aldrianna, I've been raiding Mutilate and since your sheet never covered Mutilate, I've never been able to use it that much. However, I DO read every single one of your posts.

 

• Aldriana

Eh, my sheet's been retired for a couple of months anyway, and isn't updated for the new talents and stuff anyway. I've done some rough estimates with a private sheet I tossed together for my own use, but it isn't anything ready for public consumption. Once mechanics stabilize I'll start working the new stuff into RogueCalc to get something a little more polished and ready for public use.

 

Safiyania

Having spent some time tonight playing around with Vulajin's BC 0.4.1 sheet in order to figure out what I'll be doing regarding spec and gemming and I came across a couple of points that I found interesting.

One, with regards to gemming in 3.0.2 TBC, spec does not appear to govern gemming choice as much as it does currently. It seems that the general rule of thumb for either combat or mutilate builds is to stack delicate crimson spinels in most slots, use glinting pyrestones in yellow sockets if pursuing a socket bonus, and use blues as always to activate RED. So, it would seem that the EP trends observed for level 80 content will actually translate down to level 70 content as well - assuming the spreadsheet results to be correct (which to date this sheet has proven useful and accurate in modelling dps trends in my own experience). A rather nice touch if I must editorialize, as it generally makes it much less painful to later switch specs based on weapon drops as one progresses through the content.

Second, when playing around with potential mutilate builds for 3.0.2 TBC the sheet again is indicating, for my gear and the buffs I reasonably expect to have on a Demon boss a a 51/5/5 mutilate build that invests 3/5 Relentless Strikes and 2/2 Opportunity comes out with a dps estimate that is about 0.72% greater than with 51/5/5 with 5/5 RS (roughly 20 dps given gear, buffs and cycle settings). Also 51/3/7 falls within 0.05% of a 51/5/5 with 5/5 RS. Just a little food for thought regarding the RS change, annoying as it may be.

 

rooppa

Something is bothering me, and that something being Hemo.

Looking at the changes that have been made overall, and the fact of such a build as X/Y/21 "could" be used, yet i have not seen anywhere (or at least if there is any, I have not seen it, and apologies if i have overlooked it) any comparisons done with Hemo DPS wise to Mutilate and combat specs of any sort.

I just think with the new dawn of rogues having more than one useful raid debuff now other than poisons (by that I mean such talents as Master poisoner, Savage combat & Hemo) being able to bring 2 raid increasing buff's/debuffs to a raid for a 2nd rogue may be somewhat interesting to explore.

Just for fun, is there anywhere I could plug the talent spec into of the following:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Basically a 7/43/21 MH fist OH sword build using savage combat & Hemo, but at what cost to personal DPS.

Just to see what sort of numbers it would come out with. The build would use a MH fist and OH sword. ( As there is no need for aggression, unless they tweak this further and include Hemo into this as well, wishful thinking?)

Just seems to me that, personally speaking, the introduction of Hemo into Surprise attacks opens up the option of such a build as i have linked of 7/43/21 (although more than likely poorly set out, and the talents could be juggled into more DPS giving options)

The main aim of the build however is to introduce Hemo & Savage combat in one build, not only increasing Physical damage by a not so insignificant amount with Hemo, but also % increase with Savage combat. using the two together for a rather nice increase on Physical DPS for all involved.

Also, if am barking up the wrong tree here, please tell me. But i would be very interested in looking into this further, just need some guidance as to how to go about it.

 

Arindelest

As has been explained many times, Hemo is not a "real" raid debuff. It adds a static amount of damage and you might as well just consider it to do 110% weapon damage + 10 * Debuff damage.

Furthermore, I fail to see how giving up Killing Spree, Prey on the Weak, Lethality, and Improved and Vile Poisons is worth Serrated Blades (roughly as good as Vile) and Hemo. Especially given that Combat just got a lot of nice buffs to Sinister Strike damage.

 

Krollin

Had at look at what you had found regarding 3/5 RS and 2/2 Opp.

With a 4n/4r minimum cycle in the sheet this leads to some minimal SnD downtime.
I chose 4/4 because it has been shown previously that this is the optimum.

Using the same cycle but with 4/5 RS and 1/2 Opp SnD uptime goes back to 100% and DPS is better by a fraction better than 0.1%.

Better in fact that 5/5 RS or 3/5 RS, 2/2 Opp.

For completeness I was using Rupture and SnD Glyphs in the sheet.

 

guljiny

I believe that the rupture glyph will not be available when the patch hits, only once WotLK is realeased since it requires WotLK herbs to make.

 

spookz

At the moment Hemo, Shiv, AR and BF Glyphs also won't be available with 3.0 because of the LK Herb requirements, so Combat is the only spec with 2 "endgame" Glyphs available when 3.0 hits (SS + SnD). (note: i don't consider Ambush/Gouge/Evasion Glyphs and the like "endgame" for raiding)

 

Krollin

It is rather irrelevant, in the context of what the sheet is telling me, if the Rupture glyph is available or not.

This did make me go back to the sheet and check things out.

Not sure why, because I double checked things before I posted but, removing Rupture Glyph.

4n/4r with 3/5 RS and 2/2 Opp gives 99.92% SnD uptime with 2721 DPS with my setup.
4n/4r with 4/5 RS and 1/2 Opp gives 100% SnD uptime with 2719 DPS, same setup.

With Rupture Glyph, for comparison

4n/4r with 3/5 RS and 2/2 Opp gives 99.92% SnD uptime with 2757 DPS with my setup.
4n/4r with 4/5 RS and 1/2 Opp gives 100% SnD uptime with 2753 DPS, same setup

It would appear I need to be (even) more careful using the sheet. (and yes, I have really checked the results this time)

 

rooppa

Am not saying for the build to "be the best" am just asking the question as to how I would explore the talent build.

I completely agree that 1st off , the build will not be as effective as Mutilate nor combat builds. All am asking for is a method to compare the build to those builds, and finding out a way of comparing them.

Similarly no-one really thought that the old tri-spec hemo sword spec pre-nerf would work.. and it did, and when the theory work came out about it, we realised that it was worth speccing so.

So just to ask the question in a more simple term, has anyone as of yet worked on a similar spec and came out with and comparasion figures as to the relative DPS of Hemo + Savage Combat build?

Quite simply, introduction of Hemo into Surprise attacks has perked my curiosity so much that I feel that it at least deserves a look, otherwise why put it there in the 1st place?

Furthermore, I know that the build it's self will lack personal DPS from the loss of DPS talents, but overall, the increase in DPS for the raid from Hemo should go some way to compensate for the lack of personal DPS should it not?

I have never claimed nor shall i ever claim to be anywhere near the level of maths proficiency as others that share this forum, hence i was asking the question of how to be able to compare this build.

And lastly, in my comment of Hemo being a "buff/debuff" I referred to the fact that it increased a raids DPS from it's introduction compared to without it. ergo from my Point of view, I would consider that a buff to DPS. So i still stand by my standpoint that Hemo is a raid "buff/debuff" how ever you look at it. no mater if it scales or does a static amount of increase in DPS a buff is a buff.

Now if someone could be so kind as to shoot me down with some actual math as to why the spec I linked "is a bit meh" to quote my learned College Krollin in our guild forums, as I would love for either him to be able to mock me at my stupidity, or be able to point out that am not the "nab" he named me in the past and i may have presented something reasonable with the spec.

 

luke_twigger

Vulajin has created a spreadsheet so you can do these comparisons. There is a thread dedicated to it.
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t27244-r...t_spreadsheet/

Using the default lvl80 gear and raid buffs already in the file as downloaded, I get

7/43/21, 4s5r, glyphs (hemo, snd, rup) 4075 personal + 384 hemo dps
7/51/13, 4s5r, glyphs (ss, snd, rup) 4775 personal dps

You can tinker with it more, try different talent combinations, attack rotations, buffs, etc to your own personal taste.

 

◊ chalon

Have you even looked at Vulajin's spreadsheet on page one of this very forum? You do realize it implements Hemo and everything that would be related to a 7/43/21 spec right? Even before the buffs to SS in this latest patch, 7/43/21 was something like 10% behind a standard combat spec. It's going to be even further behind now.

Asking people to "do the math" when it's actually already been pretty clearly done for you (and results reported multiple times in this very thread, most recently a couple pages ago) is pretty ignorant.

 

Pittaxx

Now that is something I'd like to see.

 

Safiyania

I too had the SnD glyph selected in the sheet and it is still giving 100% SnD uptime even with a Slow/fast dagger combination (Shard of Azzinoth/FoK). So I went back and plugged in 4/5 RS 1/2 Opp. and it still came in 9 dps lower than 3/5 RS 2/2 Opp for me. Also interestingly, in this implementation of the sheet 4-5 Envenom/5 Rupture is coming out around 20 dps higher for my gear and buff set than a 4-5 Envenom /4-5 Rupture. I suspect that some gear difference may be the primary factor behind our findings.

 

eyesolated

Hi guys, long time reader here, only recently decided that i'd start posting. Before going into my question, let me say that english is not my native language so forgive any errors i'll probably make.

On topic, Eviscerate vs. Envenom. Now i read a lot about the two abilities (both here and in other forums), and the general consensus seems to be that Envenom is flat out the better choice of a direct damage finisher, even when both are untalented. In testing on the PTR, the difference in poison application/build-up time between an assassination build and a combat build felt like it's massive, so i hat the feeling that using Envenom could have quite an impact on my DPS using a Combat Build (5/51/5 @ Level 70).

But for now, some base numbers on the things we'll evaluate (as seen on Wowhead: If you are reading this, stop pressing F5.)
Deadly Poison IX has a 30% chance of applying a stack of DP which will do 296+0.08*AP Nature damage over 12 seconds.
Envenom IV does (at 5 stacks DP, 5 CP) 740+AP*0.35 damage, unmitigated by armor.
Eviscerate XII does (at 5 CP) between 1977+AP*0.15 and 2231+AP*0.35.

From reading information on beta, i think it's safe to assume that we'll hit at least 3000AP unbuffed by the time we enter Naxxramas or are right in there in clearing phase, but i'll provide numbers for different AP levels.

If you envenom a 5-stack DP away, it will take x seconds to reestablish the full stack for the benefit of the full 5-stack Tick-DPS. Untalented, it would take (at a 45% chance from 30% base + 15% Envenom) slightly more than 2 hits per stack, so let's say we'd need about 10 hits to reestablish our 5 point Deadly Poison stack. For combat, the assumption of using a ~2.5 Speed Mainhand and a ~1.5speed offhand for easy calculation should work out fine.

From autoattacks alone, after 7.5 seconds, we had 3 MH hits and 4 OH hits (for variation on where the Auto-Attack timer is on after Envenoming, this is a safe bet, although if you Envenom right before an autoattack is to happen, you'd have 1 more attack each). If you take Sinister Strike into the equation, we could count those like (1.5GCD) the OH autoattacks, leaving us at around 6 (enough to fully use the Envenom Poison proc buff) seconds to reapply our full stack of Deadly Poison. As we get (very rough calculation) about 2 hits per second in our target, we'll take the reapplication to 1 stack/second, which leads me to the following conclusion, so we'd lose
.) After Envenom before the first reapplication: (296+0.08*AP)*5 / 12 dps
.) for 3 secs thereafter (due to tick mechanics, correct me if i'm wrong here): (296+0.08*AP)*4 / 12 dps
.) for 3 secs thereafter (again, due to tick mechanics): (296+0.08*AP)*2 / 12 dps

Including the poison-loss in Envenoms viability would put it at (740+AP*0.35)-((296+0.08*AP)/2*3), so Envenom's net damage value falls back due to lost DP ticks.
Eviscerate would be allowed to lose
.) at 2000AP: ~67%-84%
.) at 3000AP: ~60%-70%
.) at 4000AP: ~53%-67%
.) at 5000AP: ~47%-64%
of it's damage to armor mitigation (around 7% less per 1000AP for minimal damage, and an inversively scaling amount less for maximum damage). Considering the various Armor debuffs i can't help but find it very unlikely that this would happen, like, ever. But it also seems that the higher you get in AP, the stronger Envenom gets (especially if Vile Poisons/Imp. Poisons specced, i.e. heavy Assassination).

Now for a more versatile approach, i checked the numbers with the various talents included. If you happen to take Vile Poisons, the numbers would be as follows:
.) at 2000AP: ~60%-69%
.) at 3000AP: ~51%-64%
.) at 4000AP: ~43%-60%
.) at 5000AP: ~36%-56%

On the other hand, if you take Improved Eviscerate and Aggression (+35% Eviscerate Damage Total)
.) at 2000AP: ~75%-81% (75% was the maximum right? Or only for PC?)
.) at 3000AP: ~70%-78%
.) at 4000AP: ~65%-75%
.) at 5000AP: ~61%-73%

Note: I did not include any crit calculations, this is all normal damage stuff.

As a last test, i reduced Envenom's net loss to 0 (which roughly accounts for an extra IP proc because auf Envenom's application buff which pretty much evens out the DP loss i calculated) and tested the untalented numbers again, with these results:
Eviscerate would be allowed to lose
.) at 2000AP: ~37%-51%
.) at 3000AP: ~26%-45%
.) at 4000AP: ~17%-41%
.) at 5000AP: ~ 9%-37%
which still feels wrong based on everything i read about the topic.

Sidenote: At 10k AP, Envenom pulls ahead starting from 25% armor mitigation.

Conclusion
Is Envenom REALLY the better choice for a finisher? Or more to the point, is that a fact for all gear levels and talent builds? Seems to me it's not from a theoretical PoV. My personal conclusion is that Eviscerate seems to be better suited for combat at low to mid gear level due to the slow build-up of DP stacks and Aggression (+ imp. Evis if you feel like it), and maybe starts to really shine in WoTLK endgame. For assassination, Envenom seems to be superior even at entry-raid levels due to the massively fast build-up and the extra poison talents.

This is my first post, so forgive me if you don't find it well constructed or presented, i just tried to bring a question across while backing up my feelings with some numbers. I probably have some fundamental flaw in my thought process though and would be more than happy to be enlightened regarding this topic. But still, even if i tweak the reapplication rate to unreal values, eviscerate still comes out on top at least for some equipment and mitigation levels.
Where did i turn wrong?

regards
eyesolated

P.S.: Sorry for the wall of text, but i feel this topic wasn't explored in enough detail yet and i couldn't find mathematical proof for the consensus of Envenom being the better Instant Damage Finisher.

 

◊ chalon

Well, Vulajin's spreadsheet would seem to support your hypothesis. For the default gear, if I go with a 5s/5r/5e (with e being Eviscerate), my DP 5-stack uptime is 92%, and it's 319 DPS for DP. Evis does 161 DPS.

If I replace Eviscerate with Envenom, my DP 5-stack uptime goes down to 61.29% (252 DPS). Envenom does 170 DPS.

This is with Serrated Blades, but it seems regardless of that extra Armor Pen or not, Evis outperforms Envenom for a Combat spec.

 

• Vulajin

Your problem is that Envenom 4 deals 1080 damage at 5 CP (plus 35% of AP), not 740. The tooltips just haven't been updated yet.

 

• Aldriana

What you've omitted in this calculation - and what I find makes a fairly significant contribution to the damage difference - is that using Envenom increases the number of Instant Poison procs you get as well, which works out to a nontrivial damage boost for it - during, the 6 seconds after the Envenom, you're 15% more likely to proc DP, so assuming you attack on the order of once a second with the IP-ed weapon (extremely easy to do), you get almost a full IP proc out of using Envenom, which translates to over 1000 damage - which tips the scales towards Envenom fairly strongly.

 

◊ chalon

Maybe I'm missing something then, because it seems like in your most recent version of the spreadsheet, Combat cycles with 5s/5r/5e do slightly more damage than cycles with 5s/5r/5n. But given it seems like that cycle is unoptimal anyways (and 5s/5r seems like it may be a better to run), maybe that's a moot point. But it does seem like the DP loss in DPS is significant enough in this particular case that the unmitigated damage + IP damage can't make up for all of it.

 

Ena.the.rogue

I've been thinking a lot about what kind of cycles will make sense in wotlk for mutilate or combat. The pertinent question here is the question to use or not to use envenom in your cycle. Some numbers have been posted which seem to lean slightly toward using Envenom, but I would like to point out that the use of Envenom carries a danger that does not appear to be considered in the calculations. That danger being a period, however brief, during which the raid target is not poisoned. There is a poison related talent in both the assassination tree and the combat tree that increases damage raid wide on targets that you have poisoned. Now, given these aren't huge buffs: +3% crit for all attacks, or +2% dmg for all physical attacks. But the question remains, how much damage loss from other members of your raid will be caused by the lack of your poison, even if it's only for 2-3 seconds? I have no idea how to create an accurate mathematical model that would tell us, but my gut feeling is that it is never worth hitting Envenom and risking downtime on your poisons.

I think another interesting question is whether it even makes sense to use rupture at all. What numbers I've seen for eviscerate, esp with the +10% crit chance glyph (wish they would give us a way to reduce evis energy cost), is that it scales a lot higher than rupture. Given, if you're using rupture you'll have the rupture glyph and the blood splatter talent, which obviously helps, but I don't see it keeping up. If you're Mutilate, you'll favor eviscerate because of it's interaction with cut to the chase, and if you're combat, you'll have the recently revealed additional eviscerate bonus from Aggression (which, interestingly, you can now have as Mutilate as well).

For a mutilate build, assuming you already have up slice and dice and a 3 stack of hunger for blood, will any cycle be better than this one: mutilate, mutilate, eviscerate, mutilate, mutilate, eviscerate, hunger?

Dew. Be. Dew. Be. Dew.