PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion - Page 118

ryo · 09/06/08, 1:40 PM

Is anyone else finding that CTTC gives a shorter S&D buff than a 5pt S&D would? With 2/2 imp. S&D I'm getting a 31 second buff, but only 27 seconds if I use evis to proc CTTC.

OengusSC · 09/06/08, 1:52 PM

I'm a bit shocked at the almost complete lack of hit rating on leather gear, as well as the other typical rogue gear found thus far. With nearly all the gear having gobs of agility it almost makes me wonder if Blizzard is considering tuning rogues to gain an amount hit rating via agility. Something along those lines would allow them to further homogenize gear to be viable for cats and rogues. It just doesn't seem likely, seeing as that agility already grants quite a bit of other stats.

The other plausable explanation is Blizzard is trying to balance stats across the board. An upgrade is an upgrade regardless of stat allocation, so obviously we'll be forced to take what's given to us. Other stats will obviously be weighted differently with some of the new talents being introduced. Prey on the Weak will obviously make crit more enticing to a combat rogue compared to now. However, this doesn't change the fact that hit rating will still be one of the best stats to stack. It just seems odd the lack of our primary stat in BC in the Naxx 10 man gear. Thus far I've only been able to find hit rating on non-set shoulders and our set gloves and legs. There is also hit rating on an offhand sword and offhand fist weapon. None of the rings or neckpieces listed so far have hit rating thus far. We're looking at a total hit rating available in the Naxx 10 man loot table for a combat swords build of 130 hit rating, or 4.45% hit at level 80.

I know it's Beta, and things are likely to change or be added. It just has me wondering if there may be changes in store for the dual wield penalty, a mechanics change for rogues, or if in fact we'll have to deal with considerable misses due to a lack of itemization of hit rating in general.

Kaveli · 09/06/08, 2:04 PM

Mode · 09/06/08, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by OengusSC

I'm a bit shocked at the almost complete lack of hit rating on leather gear, as well as the other typical rogue gear found thus far. With nearly all the gear having gobs of agility it almost makes me wonder if Blizzard is considering tuning rogues to gain an amount hit rating via agility.

They've explicitly stated the reasoning behind the lack of +hit on leather. You're expected to socket it while they socket strength. The comment was made in the context of feral druids.

Originally Posted by Jimmythenumbers[/url

We are aware of the concerns with reaching the hit rating cap, and will make sure Druids can pick up Rogue items to wear without exceeding that cap. This means Rogues will likely socket for hit, while Druids socket for Strength or Agility.

Source

Arindelest · 09/06/08, 2:24 PM

Furthermore there's no evidence to suggest Hit Rating will remain the best stat "to stack."

Pharmacon · 09/06/08, 2:29 PM

Overall I'm a fan of the changes. However, is anyone else underwhelmed by the Overkill mandatory take to get Mutilate? Why have a subtlety feeling talent in the assassination tree? It should make finishing moves cost 5 less energy instead in my opinion.

OengusSC · 09/06/08, 2:55 PM

Originally Posted by Arindelest

Furthermore there's no evidence to suggest Hit Rating will remain the best stat "to stack."

I hated to even use the terminology, as I mentioned in my post an upgrade is an upgrade regardless of stats. I also made mention that new talents and skills will inevitably weight stats differently then now. However, I haven't seen anything, at least in the combat tree, to suggest otherwise (other then what I mentioned with crit and Prey on the Weak). Combat Potency will still require a fair amount of +hit to gain the most out of the talent.

I also didn't forget about sockets. I didn't bother to add up the amount of sockets on the Naxx 10 man gear released. My current gear has a total of 14 sockets. Assuming it's in the same neighborhood, and that we'd be using the "new" RED with the requirement of 1 red, 1 yellow, and 1 blue socket you could effectively gain 250 hit with epic gems at level 80. That would be assuming 14 sockets, ignoring socket bonuses, and meeting the meta requirement. That would be another 8.57% hit for a total of 13.02% from gear and sockets.

I highly doubt the effectiveness of hit rating will change that much to where rogues will be satisfied being that far under a hit cap. Personally I've never been too concerned about the hit cap, other then avoiding going over it. I just haven't seen anything change so drastically thus far to suggest rogues won't be concerned with hit rating. At least moreso then is being presented in the first tier of epic level gear shared thus far.

saedo · 09/06/08, 3:08 PM

It's all part of the homogenizing of gear as previously said. Not only with Druids, but probably with Mutilate (maybe Hemo) rogues too. Since we rogues don't get multiple sets and they are intending to boost dagger/mutilate specs to be better. So the design is prob to give a general overall good set with sockets to customize specifically to the spec you're going with.

jonnnney · 09/06/08, 3:16 PM

The new soft hit cap is a very important for mutilate rogues to attain because I believe envenom has the same chance to be resisted as poisons do. So if you want to use envenom with Cttc you would have to have a total of 17% chance to hit with poisons from talents and gear else you have the chance of dropping snd. I remember a few times I would try a cold blood 5 pt envenom only to have it be resisted leaving me with no damage, no cold blood, and no deadly poisons on the target. Also a resisted envenom may not proc the +25% chance to apply poisons but that is just a guess. So until you hit the 17% spell hit you would be using eviscerate with Cttc which would mean a talent change.

Ashere · 09/06/08, 3:18 PM

Originally Posted by Mode

They've explicitly stated the reasoning behind the lack of +hit on leather. You're expected to socket it while they socket strength. The comment was made in the context of feral druids.

Source

Dang, if only for once they got rid of the stupid to-hit penalty on DW. It's not as if we don't have to spend 5 talent points to make Off-hand damage to an acceptable level already..

• Wodin · 09/06/08, 5:41 PM

Have any of y'all kept combat logs for the training dummy parses? I think I've hacked up Stasis to fix the Overkill fubaring the combat log parsers (thx gian for a sanely structured program), and I'd be interested in seeing if Recount is really accurate about the absurd numbers you guys are pushing.

chalon · 09/06/08, 6:00 PM

I'll post some combat logs later tonight Wodin.

V2Viper25 · 09/06/08, 6:40 PM

I've been curious about the new change to mace spec as a combat build. Has anyone done the math on mace spec (15% ArP) vs Sword spec?

The only big question I have with the mace spec is how it is applied: Will it be applied to the target's base armor or will it be applied after other debuffs like Sunder and FF? On a high armor boss, take Void Reaver for example who has 8000 armor I think, that could be an extra 1200 constant ArP if it's applied to his base armor. Once again, let me know if someone has done the math on that. That sounds like a huge DPS increase vs Sword Spec.

Unseen · 09/06/08, 6:43 PM

I can understand non set pieces not having much hit due to the gear homogenization, but our set pieces could easily be given more hit.

• Vulajin · 09/06/08, 7:11 PM

Fiddled with the numbers on Instant and Deadly Poison to figure out exactly how the damage formulas with AP scaling work together with Vile Poisons and Infectious Poisons. Here are the formulas I came up with:

IP Damage = Round(Floor(IP Base * Vile Poisons * Infectious Poisons) + 15% * AP)
DP Damage = Round(Floor(DP Base / 4 * Vile Poisons * Infectious Poisons) * 4 + 12% * AP)

So only the base damage component of each poison is affected by the two poison talents, and for some reason, that base damage is floored after the talents are applied but before AP is applied. Then the whole thing is rounded to the nearest value. These formulas correlated with the tooltips for ranks 1-8 of Instant Poison and ranks 1-8 of Deadly Poison. I did not have the opportunity to verify the damage output as yet.